1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:12,709 do you know where you are right now I'm 2 00:00:19,990 --> 00:00:15,420 in a drug trial what do you think is 3 00:00:22,340 --> 00:00:20,000 wrong with you I'm sick I don't matter 4 00:00:24,529 --> 00:00:22,350 that's Emma Stone and Jonah Hill 5 00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:24,539 participating in a futuristic drug 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:27,390 experiment in the Netflix series maniac 7 00:00:32,780 --> 00:00:30,210 what would you say this trial is showing 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:32,790 you about yourself this therapy no it's 9 00:00:42,020 --> 00:00:34,489 not therapy 10 00:00:44,180 --> 00:00:42,030 it's science science indeed I mentioned 11 00:00:47,090 --> 00:00:44,190 that the show is futuristic but it's 12 00:00:49,069 --> 00:00:47,100 cleverly not futuristic because as many 13 00:00:51,740 --> 00:00:49,079 of you know the history of 14 00:00:54,470 --> 00:00:51,750 government-sponsored pharmaceutical 15 00:00:56,950 --> 00:00:54,480 based social engineering mind-control 16 00:00:59,630 --> 00:00:56,960 stuff is well-established 17 00:01:03,110 --> 00:00:59,640 we met even take it one step further as 18 00:01:06,500 --> 00:01:03,120 today's guest Robert Forte does and say 19 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:06,510 that the history of psychedelic drugs is 20 00:01:13,130 --> 00:01:10,490 a microcosm of the history of religion I 21 00:01:15,380 --> 00:01:13,140 really want to understand how you're 22 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:15,390 juggling these two things because what I 23 00:01:22,789 --> 00:01:18,900 hear from Wasson is this both an kind of 24 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:22,799 thing yeah he's a lyin ass CIA lifetime 25 00:01:30,050 --> 00:01:26,610 player yes but I also get the sense that 26 00:01:32,899 --> 00:01:30,060 he's someone who either before during or 27 00:01:34,910 --> 00:01:32,909 after is woken up to the larger reality 28 00:01:37,340 --> 00:01:34,920 that he's Gumble into or that he's been 29 00:01:39,469 --> 00:01:37,350 pushed into well you know I'm glad you 30 00:01:42,289 --> 00:01:39,479 put it that way because I'm still kind 31 00:01:45,819 --> 00:01:42,299 of you know I think back to my meetings 32 00:01:48,260 --> 00:01:45,829 with Watson he had a very peculiar 33 00:01:50,300 --> 00:01:48,270 personality around me I mean I think I 34 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:50,310 think there was some genuine affection 35 00:01:56,539 --> 00:01:54,540 and respect for me as a young man who 36 00:01:58,730 --> 00:01:56,549 really wanted to understand what was 37 00:02:01,039 --> 00:01:58,740 going on you know I don't really know 38 00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:01,049 I'd really love to go back into his 39 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:03,360 archives and read more of his letters 40 00:02:09,050 --> 00:02:06,210 but I I gave a lecture in New York 41 00:02:11,690 --> 00:02:09,060 shortly after my realization of his 42 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:11,700 relationship to the American fascists 43 00:02:16,949 --> 00:02:13,930 and then my my access to 44 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:16,959 the archives was denied now this is 45 00:02:21,390 --> 00:02:18,730 another one of those level three 46 00:02:22,890 --> 00:02:21,400 skeptical conversations that kind of 47 00:02:26,429 --> 00:02:22,900 goes in a lot of different directions 48 00:02:28,649 --> 00:02:26,439 including the LSD movement versus the 49 00:02:31,229 --> 00:02:28,659 LSD movements we talked a lot about 50 00:02:33,390 --> 00:02:31,239 Timothy Leary since today's guest spent 51 00:02:35,550 --> 00:02:33,400 quite a bit of time with him we talked 52 00:02:38,190 --> 00:02:35,560 about his early history his experience 53 00:02:40,649 --> 00:02:38,200 with the CIA his claim that the CIA 54 00:02:42,690 --> 00:02:40,659 wasn't all bad in the early 50s but then 55 00:02:44,819 --> 00:02:42,700 they turned bad and he turned against 56 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:44,829 him and I love Leary's quote that a 57 00:02:48,899 --> 00:02:46,810 third of what he said was a 58 00:02:51,420 --> 00:02:48,909 third of what he said was dead wrong and 59 00:02:53,729 --> 00:02:51,430 a third of what he said was a base hit 60 00:02:55,849 --> 00:02:53,739 but a 333 batting average makes you a 61 00:02:58,860 --> 00:02:55,859 hall-of-famer we also talked about 62 00:03:01,409 --> 00:02:58,870 Aleister Crowley and whether he really 63 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:01,419 was the sick puppy he seems to be and 64 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:03,730 how he's involved in this mind control 65 00:03:08,190 --> 00:03:05,290 thing and of course we talked about 66 00:03:11,839 --> 00:03:08,200 Roberts amazing journey through this 67 00:03:14,009 --> 00:03:11,849 entire psychedelics and Thea j'en thing 68 00:03:17,309 --> 00:03:14,019 including his relationship with 69 00:03:19,559 --> 00:03:17,319 clandestine CIA operative Gordon Wasson 70 00:03:22,409 --> 00:03:19,569 we also talked about ROM dass neem 71 00:03:25,289 --> 00:03:22,419 Karoli Baba and contrast ROM dust 72 00:03:27,930 --> 00:03:25,299 Timothy Leary in some ways you might 73 00:03:30,509 --> 00:03:27,940 find interesting if you're at all into 74 00:03:34,530 --> 00:03:30,519 that stuff this guy Robert Forte is 75 00:03:36,439 --> 00:03:34,540 quite an amazing figure in history that 76 00:03:39,149 --> 00:03:36,449 you've probably haven't heard about 77 00:03:40,510 --> 00:03:39,159 stick around for my interview I think 78 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:40,520 you'll really enjoy it 79 00:03:54,130 --> 00:03:51,040 [Music] 80 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:54,140 today we welcome Robert Forte to skeptic 81 00:03:58,990 --> 00:03:56,690 Oh Robert is the author of a couple of 82 00:04:00,960 --> 00:03:59,000 books we're gonna talk about and 83 00:04:04,570 --> 00:04:00,970 theagenes in the future of religion 84 00:04:07,690 --> 00:04:04,580 Timothy Leary outside looking in but 85 00:04:10,899 --> 00:04:07,700 more than the books we're going to talk 86 00:04:13,449 --> 00:04:10,909 about how Robert has been right in the 87 00:04:16,210 --> 00:04:13,459 middle of this amazing history of the 88 00:04:19,719 --> 00:04:16,220 psychedelic experience in the middle of 89 00:04:21,189 --> 00:04:19,729 it like really like no one else it's an 90 00:04:24,879 --> 00:04:21,199 amazing story 91 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:24,889 oh just incredibly amazing life great to 92 00:04:28,870 --> 00:04:26,570 have you here Robert thanks so much for 93 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:28,880 joining me on skeptic oh well thanks 94 00:04:32,890 --> 00:04:31,130 Alex it's good to be here I've listened 95 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:32,900 to a couple of your programs and I've 96 00:04:36,909 --> 00:04:35,210 been impressed with the kind of 97 00:04:39,159 --> 00:04:36,919 conversations you're having some I'm 98 00:04:40,900 --> 00:04:39,169 really happy to join you okay as we were 99 00:04:42,670 --> 00:04:40,910 just chatting about in MIT ago we'll see 100 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:42,680 we'll see where this thing goes we'll 101 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:44,770 see if you're happy at the end of this 102 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:48,110 because there are so many twists and 103 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:51,770 turns to this story and where it goes 104 00:04:58,420 --> 00:04:55,310 and as you said you know we've on this 105 00:05:00,610 --> 00:04:58,430 show explored this topic and I've 106 00:05:03,940 --> 00:05:00,620 explored it from a couple of different 107 00:05:05,770 --> 00:05:03,950 angles and not because I ever had my 108 00:05:07,690 --> 00:05:05,780 arms around it because I still don't 109 00:05:11,379 --> 00:05:07,700 have my arms around it and I feel like 110 00:05:14,350 --> 00:05:11,389 I've gone down the wrong alley way more 111 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:14,360 than once or twice and to certain extent 112 00:05:19,180 --> 00:05:17,330 I was gratified to see that you kind of 113 00:05:22,420 --> 00:05:19,190 feel like you have to and it's almost 114 00:05:25,390 --> 00:05:22,430 like you got to be the guy who gets 115 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:25,400 duped in order to really understand the 116 00:05:31,689 --> 00:05:28,849 inside of the game thing but I'm jumping 117 00:05:34,990 --> 00:05:31,699 way ahead in the story let's go back and 118 00:05:37,300 --> 00:05:35,000 start at the very beginning who is 119 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:37,310 Robert Forte well we're not going to get 120 00:05:44,140 --> 00:05:39,410 into all that but we will let's talk 121 00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:44,150 about my my career my background in this 122 00:05:50,469 --> 00:05:46,910 in this field of psychedelics because I 123 00:05:52,150 --> 00:05:50,479 have explored it very very deeply on a 124 00:05:55,089 --> 00:05:52,160 number of levels 125 00:05:58,659 --> 00:05:55,099 personally the kind of professionally as 126 00:06:01,300 --> 00:05:58,669 a scholar as a researcher as a person 127 00:06:03,790 --> 00:06:01,310 that was quite involved in the under 128 00:06:07,330 --> 00:06:03,800 our movement I've had working 129 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:07,340 relationships with many practically well 130 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:10,310 a lot of the most significant people who 131 00:06:16,030 --> 00:06:12,290 brought this subject into public 132 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:16,040 consciousness since the since the 1950s 133 00:06:22,540 --> 00:06:20,210 I you know and in my own involvement in 134 00:06:24,340 --> 00:06:22,550 it as you said is gone like there were 135 00:06:27,820 --> 00:06:24,350 there were periods in my life where I 136 00:06:30,430 --> 00:06:27,830 was my first exposure to these drugs was 137 00:06:35,980 --> 00:06:30,440 one of just utter fascination when I was 138 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:35,990 just a young boy in 1967 I saw a copy of 139 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:39,410 life or Look magazine with LSD on the 140 00:06:45,700 --> 00:06:42,370 cover and I was just fascinated by the 141 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:45,710 the imagery and I didn't know anything 142 00:06:50,980 --> 00:06:47,810 about it and I was supposed to that was 143 00:06:53,470 --> 00:06:50,990 my day to do a social studies report in 144 00:06:55,810 --> 00:06:53,480 current events in my fifth-grade class 145 00:06:58,210 --> 00:06:55,820 so I brought this magazine in to talk 146 00:07:00,150 --> 00:06:58,220 about LSD and I didn't even know what it 147 00:07:03,490 --> 00:07:00,160 was and I asked my fifth-grade teacher 148 00:07:06,670 --> 00:07:03,500 what is that what is LSD what does that 149 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:06,680 stand for and she looked at me with this 150 00:07:14,890 --> 00:07:10,250 funny little grin and she said let's 151 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:14,900 save democracy really yeah that was just 152 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:17,210 fascinating that was like the only sign 153 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:20,210 that the 60s happened in the in the area 154 00:07:24,730 --> 00:07:22,490 where I grew up in this little suburb of 155 00:07:26,590 --> 00:07:24,740 New York City of course that went right 156 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:26,600 over my head I had no idea what she was 157 00:07:33,670 --> 00:07:30,530 talking about but it just kind of stayed 158 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:33,680 there and you know if years went would 159 00:07:39,370 --> 00:07:35,930 go by now I'm in high school and kids 160 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:39,380 are starting to take LSD and I was 161 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:42,050 appalled I was like a really straight 162 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:45,380 young boy I was in I was a jock I was 163 00:07:51,970 --> 00:07:49,130 into sports and and nature and I saw 164 00:07:54,310 --> 00:07:51,980 kids that would take this LSD stuff and 165 00:07:56,700 --> 00:07:54,320 they would just get too freaked out and 166 00:07:59,530 --> 00:07:56,710 they would sort of wander off into these 167 00:08:02,560 --> 00:07:59,540 cul de sacs and kind of lose their way 168 00:08:04,930 --> 00:08:02,570 and I vowed I would never go near any 169 00:08:07,060 --> 00:08:04,940 any of these kinds of drugs they were 170 00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:07,070 just frightening to me and it wasn't 171 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:09,950 really until my my third year of college 172 00:08:15,250 --> 00:08:14,870 that I began to change my mind I had by 173 00:08:18,220 --> 00:08:15,260 this 174 00:08:20,740 --> 00:08:18,230 won't become a student of religion I had 175 00:08:23,770 --> 00:08:20,750 taken up a meditation practice I was 176 00:08:26,260 --> 00:08:23,780 exploring Buddhism and we're doing too 177 00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:26,270 young right first it was Transcendental 178 00:08:31,570 --> 00:08:29,360 Meditation and then I decided to really 179 00:08:33,940 --> 00:08:31,580 understand where did these techniques 180 00:08:37,180 --> 00:08:33,950 come from meditation had a very profound 181 00:08:38,380 --> 00:08:37,190 and beneficial effect on my life and so 182 00:08:40,870 --> 00:08:38,390 I was at a student at Columbia 183 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:40,880 University and I wanted to understand 184 00:08:45,190 --> 00:08:42,710 what was the history of these techniques 185 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:45,200 and that's when I learned about the 186 00:08:49,930 --> 00:08:47,570 theories about psychedelics and the 187 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:49,940 origin of religion and I thought wow 188 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:53,090 I've overlooked something here and and I 189 00:08:59,980 --> 00:08:56,810 began to read voraciously and then after 190 00:09:03,310 --> 00:08:59,990 quite many many books I decided I would 191 00:09:07,390 --> 00:09:03,320 try one and I had a mushroom experience 192 00:09:09,870 --> 00:09:07,400 that was mild but very interesting and 193 00:09:12,250 --> 00:09:09,880 it was time for me to move to California 194 00:09:14,050 --> 00:09:12,260 just at that point in my life to get 195 00:09:16,090 --> 00:09:14,060 away from the East Coast and I came out 196 00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:16,100 to finish my degree at the University of 197 00:09:22,180 --> 00:09:18,860 California and Santa Cruz and I had the 198 00:09:24,910 --> 00:09:22,190 very great fortune to connect there with 199 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:24,920 Frank Barron now I don't know how how 200 00:09:30,550 --> 00:09:27,710 much you or your listeners know about 201 00:09:34,110 --> 00:09:30,560 Frank Barron because he's been a very 202 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:34,120 quiet but very significant force in 203 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:37,490 American psychology and particularly in 204 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:40,850 in really starting the psychedelic 205 00:09:46,150 --> 00:09:44,210 movement yeah he's really the forerunner 206 00:09:47,890 --> 00:09:46,160 to America thinks of Leary when you have 207 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:47,900 a whole book I'm Larry and you you were 208 00:09:52,180 --> 00:09:49,790 with Timothy Leary for the last three 209 00:09:53,770 --> 00:09:52,190 years of his life and you know all his 210 00:09:56,170 --> 00:09:53,780 associates we're gonna talk about that 211 00:09:58,270 --> 00:09:56,180 but tell folks a little bit about Frank 212 00:10:00,820 --> 00:09:58,280 Barron cuz folks don't know he's he's 213 00:10:02,980 --> 00:10:00,830 kind of the pivot guy from the beginning 214 00:10:04,630 --> 00:10:02,990 he is the pivot guy but let me just back 215 00:10:08,230 --> 00:10:04,640 up a second because I used this phrase 216 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:08,240 the psychedelic movement and I'm backing 217 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:10,010 off that phrase and I think it's much 218 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:12,530 more important to talk about psychedelic 219 00:10:18,340 --> 00:10:14,930 movements because although with its one 220 00:10:21,750 --> 00:10:18,350 family of drugs there are really many 221 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:21,760 very very different groups of people 222 00:10:27,220 --> 00:10:24,170 individuals and groups of people who use 223 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:27,230 these drugs for wildly divergent 224 00:10:30,669 --> 00:10:28,850 purposes 225 00:10:33,279 --> 00:10:30,679 so I want to be careful we not talk 226 00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:33,289 about psychedelic movement versus 227 00:10:38,079 --> 00:10:35,720 psychedelic movements now Frank baron 228 00:10:39,579 --> 00:10:38,089 was Timothy Leary's best friend in 229 00:10:41,889 --> 00:10:39,589 graduate school they both went to 230 00:10:46,869 --> 00:10:41,899 Berkeley together he was a veteran of 231 00:10:49,869 --> 00:10:46,879 World War two and he was he was 232 00:10:53,049 --> 00:10:49,879 horrified by the advent of the nuclear 233 00:10:54,999 --> 00:10:53,059 bomb and he realized that like a lot of 234 00:10:57,999 --> 00:10:55,009 people realized at that time that oh my 235 00:11:01,269 --> 00:10:58,009 god you know this savage power in the 236 00:11:04,809 --> 00:11:01,279 hands of a humanity that you know this 237 00:11:06,579 --> 00:11:04,819 was this was potential disaster Albert 238 00:11:08,259 --> 00:11:06,589 Einstein said the same thing you know 239 00:11:11,019 --> 00:11:08,269 like he shouldn't have done the research 240 00:11:13,299 --> 00:11:11,029 that led to this human beings can't 241 00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:13,309 handle this power and Frank realized 242 00:11:18,749 --> 00:11:14,720 that if we're going to have this bomb 243 00:11:22,419 --> 00:11:18,759 we're going to need a equal like 244 00:11:24,489 --> 00:11:22,429 expansion of wisdom and compassion and 245 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:24,499 understanding or we're going to blow 246 00:11:29,169 --> 00:11:26,689 ourselves up and so he devoted his 247 00:11:32,169 --> 00:11:29,179 career in psychology to this sort of 248 00:11:35,079 --> 00:11:32,179 thing and when he discovered these 249 00:11:37,749 --> 00:11:35,089 mushrooms while studying creativity in 250 00:11:40,359 --> 00:11:37,759 Mexico he thought that he had found kind 251 00:11:42,549 --> 00:11:40,369 of the Holy Grail to psychology that 252 00:11:46,029 --> 00:11:42,559 this was a way to just you know release 253 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:46,039 a corresponding you know expansion of 254 00:11:50,499 --> 00:11:47,689 consciousness that would counter the 255 00:11:52,359 --> 00:11:50,509 bomb he was really into this and he told 256 00:11:54,309 --> 00:11:52,369 his friend Tim about it this was the 257 00:11:56,619 --> 00:11:54,319 thing that they were looking for this is 258 00:11:59,229 --> 00:11:56,629 when what year would this be well this 259 00:12:02,049 --> 00:11:59,239 is about 1950 late late they were they 260 00:12:04,059 --> 00:12:02,059 were at Berkeley from the in the 1950s 261 00:12:07,299 --> 00:12:04,069 and Frank finally connected with the 262 00:12:09,939 --> 00:12:07,309 mushroom about 1958 I think it was and 263 00:12:13,239 --> 00:12:09,949 he told him about it and Tim was in a 264 00:12:15,549 --> 00:12:13,249 rough spot in his life he had his wife 265 00:12:17,710 --> 00:12:15,559 had just committed suicide he was 266 00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:17,720 completely disillusioned with American 267 00:12:25,049 --> 00:12:20,929 psychology he had already realized that 268 00:12:29,139 --> 00:12:25,059 the field was infiltrated with with CIA 269 00:12:32,619 --> 00:12:29,149 operatives and CIA money he was appalled 270 00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:32,629 at the apathy of the profession that 271 00:12:39,220 --> 00:12:34,639 this was being that this was turning 272 00:12:42,140 --> 00:12:39,230 into a mind-control enterprise he 273 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:42,150 realized this early on 274 00:12:47,150 --> 00:12:44,250 and he was and he dropped out he took a 275 00:12:49,790 --> 00:12:47,160 sabbatical leave and Frank finally 276 00:12:51,830 --> 00:12:49,800 persuades him to try the mushrooms let 277 00:12:53,390 --> 00:12:51,840 me just interject here because I'm gonna 278 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:53,400 have a million questions so I don't know 279 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:54,690 how I'm gonna do this and how we're 280 00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,490 gonna get some flow but there's a lot of 281 00:13:01,360 --> 00:12:58,320 little details that need to get filled 282 00:13:06,620 --> 00:13:01,370 in for me as I try and understand this 283 00:13:10,130 --> 00:13:06,630 Leary is sniffing out the MKULTRA stuff 284 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:10,140 that's starting in the 50s okay how is 285 00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:11,850 that do you have any more insight into 286 00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:14,910 how that is playing out for him what he 287 00:13:19,940 --> 00:13:18,000 sees what he's kind of upset about and 288 00:13:21,860 --> 00:13:19,950 what are the origins some of those 289 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:21,870 projects because folks need to know that 290 00:13:27,530 --> 00:13:24,090 that's documented at this point that 291 00:13:31,250 --> 00:13:27,540 they're all in in psychology so 292 00:13:33,460 --> 00:13:31,260 northwestern is one place and you know 293 00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:33,470 we had a guy on who's doing a fantastic 294 00:13:40,340 --> 00:13:37,590 documentary on Padraic and so all the 295 00:13:42,350 --> 00:13:40,350 guys that at Northwestern are pulled 296 00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:42,360 into this there's hundreds of different 297 00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,600 facets of the MKULTRA program a lot of 298 00:13:47,570 --> 00:13:47,040 different money being spread out 299 00:13:50,390 --> 00:13:47,580 everywhere 300 00:13:52,670 --> 00:13:50,400 what was his at this point early on you 301 00:13:56,930 --> 00:13:52,680 know before the LSD thing what was he 302 00:13:59,570 --> 00:13:56,940 feeling about the MKULTRA stuff well it 303 00:14:02,780 --> 00:13:59,580 wasn't quite MKULTRA yet at this point 304 00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:02,790 but I'll give you a couple of good 305 00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:04,350 sources first of all there's Frank 306 00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:08,700 Behrens a kind of memoir called no 307 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:12,240 rootless flower and Frank mentions in 308 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:14,690 there how when they were at Berkeley 309 00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:17,970 they realized that all this government 310 00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:21,990 money was coming in and it was you will 311 00:14:27,550 --> 00:14:23,520 back up a little bit further so we had 312 00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:27,560 the OSS that at the end of World War two 313 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:30,990 it didn't it didn't exactly disappear it 314 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:35,370 kind of split into the CIA the Harvard 315 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:38,750 psychology clinic and the Institute for 316 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:41,370 personality research and assessment at 317 00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:45,450 Berkeley and Frank writes about this in 318 00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:48,600 no rootless flower Tim writes about this 319 00:14:54,980 --> 00:14:51,360 very candidly and with his classic just 320 00:14:55,550 --> 00:14:54,990 Irish wit and humor in in his book the 321 00:14:58,610 --> 00:14:55,560 Intelligent 322 00:15:01,970 --> 00:14:58,620 agents where he writes about he calls it 323 00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:01,980 the federal bureaucracy and he and Frank 324 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:04,920 were were like they were aware of this 325 00:15:11,420 --> 00:15:08,250 they were kind of ambivalent they were 326 00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:11,430 they were delighted to be receiving 327 00:15:18,380 --> 00:15:15,300 money but they were also Frank was a 328 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:18,390 veteran of actual combat in World War 329 00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:20,250 two Tim was in the service but didn't 330 00:15:25,519 --> 00:15:22,560 really see action but they were aware of 331 00:15:29,060 --> 00:15:25,529 like the psychology of fascism and the 332 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:29,070 authoritarian personality and and you 333 00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:31,529 know democracy versus authoritarianism 334 00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:33,420 and this is what they had devoted their 335 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:35,510 careers to so they were kind of 336 00:15:39,550 --> 00:15:37,290 conflicted here like here's the 337 00:15:42,079 --> 00:15:39,560 government kind of secretly funding 338 00:15:45,170 --> 00:15:42,089 psychological science which could have 339 00:15:47,690 --> 00:15:45,180 disastrous effects on a democracy in 340 00:15:49,579 --> 00:15:47,700 terms of mind control but Tim really 341 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:49,589 kind of woke up to it and he mentions 342 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:52,290 this in his you know really brilliant an 343 00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:54,930 important autobiography called 344 00:15:59,720 --> 00:15:58,170 flashbacks which is I know I just said 345 00:16:03,860 --> 00:15:59,730 it was brilliant and important but it's 346 00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:03,870 also full of exaggerations and and false 347 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:06,420 stories but Tim talks about being 348 00:16:15,050 --> 00:16:09,770 recruited in I believe it's as early as 349 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:15,060 1947 by cord Meyer now dionneb how much 350 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,130 you know about who cord Meyer is or he's 351 00:16:22,610 --> 00:16:19,680 a little bit okay so cord Meyer is a 352 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:22,620 very important person in this post-war 353 00:16:29,570 --> 00:16:26,310 period and he was basically one of the 354 00:16:32,510 --> 00:16:29,580 original you know officers founders of 355 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:32,520 the CIA and he started what's known as 356 00:16:38,420 --> 00:16:35,490 operation Mockingbird which was one of 357 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:38,430 the most pervasive and continues to this 358 00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:41,250 day operations of the CIA which is the 359 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:45,060 infiltration of the American media all 360 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:45,810 media 361 00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:48,930 I mean television and newspapers and 362 00:16:55,850 --> 00:16:51,300 movies and book publishing and 363 00:17:00,650 --> 00:16:55,860 university faculties and and hello 364 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:00,660 Anderson Cooper exactly and how Tim 365 00:17:08,419 --> 00:17:04,050 writes about how cord Meyer approached 366 00:17:09,380 --> 00:17:08,429 him to recruit him to basically spy on 367 00:17:11,660 --> 00:17:09,390 American 368 00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:11,670 because they they wanted to know if 369 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:14,280 there were going to be any uprisings 370 00:17:20,059 --> 00:17:17,370 against the you know they're starting to 371 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:20,069 rev up the Cold War and trying to 372 00:17:25,910 --> 00:17:23,610 introduce these memes of fear to the 373 00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:25,920 Russians or trying to get us and you 374 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:27,600 know you make a population afraid 375 00:17:31,220 --> 00:17:29,250 they're easier to control and they are 376 00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:31,230 just they're just starting these kinds 377 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:34,110 of operations and Tim was recruited to 378 00:17:39,650 --> 00:17:37,410 be part of this now Tim in flashbacks 379 00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:39,660 says he didn't want any part of it and 380 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:42,720 it was really what alerted him and Frank 381 00:17:50,090 --> 00:17:47,370 to the fact that the war was not over 382 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:50,100 that the war had had really moved over 383 00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:52,650 here and this is something that you know 384 00:17:58,760 --> 00:17:54,990 I gather your listeners are hip to this 385 00:18:02,270 --> 00:17:58,770 but you know a lot of Americans are not 386 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:02,280 really very savvy about the end of World 387 00:18:10,669 --> 00:18:05,910 War two and the creation of the Central 388 00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:10,679 Intelligence Agency and and really what 389 00:18:14,450 --> 00:18:12,270 we're up against here I mean a lot of 390 00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:14,460 Americans think that we have a problem 391 00:18:19,789 --> 00:18:16,710 now that Donald Trump is president that 392 00:18:22,370 --> 00:18:19,799 fascism may come to America well I've 393 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:22,380 got news for you fascism came to America 394 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:26,490 in the mid 1950s you know or even a 395 00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:28,110 little bit earlier with the creation of 396 00:18:34,820 --> 00:18:31,350 the CIA there's a lot there and boy I 397 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:34,830 mean we could go into the whole Gailen 398 00:18:39,530 --> 00:18:37,290 thing and the whole paperclip thing and 399 00:18:42,590 --> 00:18:39,540 we should I guess maybe a little bit in 400 00:18:44,810 --> 00:18:42,600 the allen dulles thing and where he pops 401 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:44,820 up and all the rest and I don't know how 402 00:18:48,980 --> 00:18:47,010 far deep we want to get into it and I 403 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:48,990 also kind of want to throw a whole other 404 00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:52,049 you know log on the fire if you will to 405 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:54,240 because one of the things that I've 406 00:18:58,940 --> 00:18:56,730 turned up so I've gone down a couple of 407 00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:58,950 different paths on skeptic oh I really 408 00:19:03,470 --> 00:19:01,280 first started going down the 409 00:19:06,890 --> 00:19:03,480 parapsychology path you know so if you 410 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:06,900 look at what our friends in the CIA and 411 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:08,730 the intelligence organizations were 412 00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:12,510 doing in terms of that aspect of mental 413 00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:15,960 phenomena you know remote viewing and 414 00:19:20,780 --> 00:19:18,510 then later on in the men who stare at 415 00:19:23,150 --> 00:19:20,790 goats kind of thing but it's all another 416 00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:23,160 facet of this whole operation 417 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:26,790 and then I also stumbled across some 418 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:29,250 great work done by a researcher in 419 00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:31,770 Canada and named grant Cameron who 420 00:19:38,090 --> 00:19:34,320 uncovers this through Freedom of 421 00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:38,100 Information Act in Canada a document 422 00:19:45,470 --> 00:19:41,640 from Wilbert Smith in the 1950s who is 423 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:45,480 the highest-ranking intelligence officer 424 00:19:51,020 --> 00:19:48,450 in Canada responsible for aerial 425 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:51,030 phenomena and not UFOs at this point but 426 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:53,250 just hey anything that's going on in the 427 00:19:59,800 --> 00:19:55,410 skies or in the radio waves of Canada 428 00:20:02,990 --> 00:19:59,810 and he starts having contact like 429 00:20:04,940 --> 00:20:03,000 experiences and observations and he goes 430 00:20:07,580 --> 00:20:04,950 down to thee and he goes to his bosses 431 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:07,590 and his boss to say hey you better go 432 00:20:12,410 --> 00:20:09,810 down to our friends down there in the US 433 00:20:14,060 --> 00:20:12,420 and see what's going on and this is 434 00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:14,070 gonna relate back to the story in some 435 00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:16,560 important ways so he goes down there and 436 00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:19,260 he meets with according to his memo 437 00:20:22,730 --> 00:20:21,000 which again is a top-secret memo that 438 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:22,740 kind of accidentally slips out of the 439 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:26,400 FOI of of Canada and it says I met with 440 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:28,770 the highest-ranking officials I met with 441 00:20:35,210 --> 00:20:31,290 Vandiver Bush I met with all the top 442 00:20:38,090 --> 00:20:35,220 guys the UFO thing is real it's the 443 00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:38,100 highest priority among American 444 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:40,080 intelligence and here's the kicker that 445 00:20:47,380 --> 00:20:43,410 ties back to this it speaks to a mental 446 00:20:51,490 --> 00:20:47,390 phenomena that connects us to these 447 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:51,500 sightings so from the beginning they're 448 00:21:01,100 --> 00:20:56,970 interested in how et is working in this 449 00:21:02,540 --> 00:21:01,110 extended consciousness realm so I just 450 00:21:04,910 --> 00:21:02,550 throw that like I say there's another 451 00:21:07,310 --> 00:21:04,920 log on the fire cuz I get the social 452 00:21:10,490 --> 00:21:07,320 engineering to control people definitely 453 00:21:12,980 --> 00:21:10,500 in play you know the rise of the Fourth 454 00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:12,990 Reich kind of thing definitely in play 455 00:21:17,630 --> 00:21:15,150 Dulles is totally in bed with those guys 456 00:21:19,550 --> 00:21:17,640 they see this as hey yeah the Nazis are 457 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:19,560 Nazis but you know they had some pretty 458 00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:21,810 good ideas there in terms of how to 459 00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:24,510 control people you know and in their own 460 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:26,430 social engineering program in their own 461 00:21:31,010 --> 00:21:28,770 program with the psychology and all the 462 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:31,020 rest of that but so there's just so many 463 00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:32,610 different facets of that and the other 464 00:21:36,940 --> 00:21:33,840 thing I just wanted to throw out there 465 00:21:39,550 --> 00:21:36,950 before I let you get back to it 466 00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:39,560 as you know the Timothy Leary story 467 00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:44,030 doesn't exactly pass the sniff test of 468 00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:46,190 you know all these guys who get co-opted 469 00:21:50,170 --> 00:21:48,710 by the CIA which I forgive them for that 470 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:50,180 for all that because it's it's totally 471 00:21:54,580 --> 00:21:52,250 natural you know one you have to make 472 00:21:57,490 --> 00:21:54,590 living and two back in the 50s people 473 00:21:58,840 --> 00:21:57,500 didn't really know what we know now but 474 00:22:01,090 --> 00:21:58,850 when he says you know he's like all 475 00:22:03,460 --> 00:22:01,100 these people oh I resisted I resisted 476 00:22:05,470 --> 00:22:03,470 it's like really you resisted I mean I 477 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:05,480 don't know what do you what do you think 478 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:07,370 have any of that stuff 479 00:22:12,010 --> 00:22:09,410 Robert way I mean wow there's a whole 480 00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:12,020 lot right there Alex um you know you 481 00:22:17,350 --> 00:22:13,520 mentioned ETS 482 00:22:19,930 --> 00:22:17,360 and psychic phenomena and ETS are really 483 00:22:21,730 --> 00:22:19,940 like this like the in some ways the 484 00:22:24,790 --> 00:22:21,740 deepest level of this and that maybe 485 00:22:29,490 --> 00:22:24,800 they may be directing some of these 486 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:29,500 nefarious forces but there may also be 487 00:22:34,030 --> 00:22:30,710 positive 488 00:22:35,860 --> 00:22:34,040 ETS you know and that we may start to 489 00:22:39,220 --> 00:22:35,870 have to kind of look at American history 490 00:22:41,230 --> 00:22:39,230 is like a Star Trek episode which is 491 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:41,240 sort of ironic and way you know Tim's 492 00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:43,490 ashes being fired up into space with 493 00:22:51,790 --> 00:22:48,560 Gene Roddenberry and then what you say 494 00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:51,800 about you know like when I asked him and 495 00:22:58,180 --> 00:22:53,840 I got to spend a lot of time with with 496 00:23:00,430 --> 00:22:58,190 him you know I knew him since 1981 was 497 00:23:02,980 --> 00:23:00,440 when we first met I was myself wanting 498 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:02,990 to do research with psychedelics at that 499 00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:05,510 point and the story was that he kind of 500 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:08,960 blew it for everyone even Frank kind of 501 00:23:12,130 --> 00:23:10,610 thought that and that was my position 502 00:23:15,490 --> 00:23:12,140 that you know he was just too outrageous 503 00:23:18,490 --> 00:23:15,500 and too controversial and too political 504 00:23:20,590 --> 00:23:18,500 and and and advising kids to take all 505 00:23:22,570 --> 00:23:20,600 these drugs was just craziness and the 506 00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:22,580 government had to make them illegal I 507 00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:25,760 bought that story but as years went on 508 00:23:31,170 --> 00:23:28,130 for me I began to realize a whole nother 509 00:23:34,270 --> 00:23:31,180 level to it and I began to see a kind of 510 00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:34,280 method to his madness but anyway I'm 511 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:36,080 getting back to the CIA here in a minute 512 00:23:39,130 --> 00:23:37,730 when I would talk with Tim about it 513 00:23:41,140 --> 00:23:39,140 that's exactly what he would say you 514 00:23:42,580 --> 00:23:41,150 know he said you know I'm forgetting 515 00:23:43,180 --> 00:23:42,590 said you know Robert you know back in 516 00:23:48,670 --> 00:23:43,190 those days 517 00:23:51,610 --> 00:23:48,680 meaning the 50s the CIA was not all bad 518 00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:51,620 and that you know they hadn't really 519 00:24:01,780 --> 00:23:56,960 become what we think of them now and I'm 520 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:01,790 inclined to think that Tim Tim was sort 521 00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:06,530 of duped and that he was he was he was 522 00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:09,110 funded by the CIA he was advised by the 523 00:24:16,270 --> 00:24:12,260 CIA but he wasn't really that aware of 524 00:24:19,570 --> 00:24:16,280 how he was being used by the CIA and I 525 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:19,580 believe that that really shifted with 526 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:22,810 his relationship with Mary Pinchot Meyer 527 00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:25,370 which is one of the most interesting 528 00:24:31,270 --> 00:24:29,390 stories I tell that story well first I 529 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:31,280 want to refer you you guys probably know 530 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:33,530 that what I think is one of the most 531 00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:36,770 important books on this is called Mary's 532 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:39,500 mosaic and it's written by a man named 533 00:24:44,470 --> 00:24:42,110 Peter Janey who has a very become a very 534 00:24:47,770 --> 00:24:44,480 close friend and kind of mentor of mine 535 00:24:49,330 --> 00:24:47,780 and I was fascinated by this story when 536 00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:49,340 I first heard it in the stories 537 00:24:56,980 --> 00:24:52,960 basically that when when Tim is still a 538 00:24:59,560 --> 00:24:56,990 lecturer on the Harvard faculty and just 539 00:25:02,320 --> 00:24:59,570 starting to kind of publicize what's 540 00:25:05,950 --> 00:25:02,330 going on with psychedelics we hadn't 541 00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:05,960 gotten that outrageous yet he's visited 542 00:25:09,820 --> 00:25:07,520 by a woman named Mary 543 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:09,830 Pinchot Meyer now I had already 544 00:25:14,380 --> 00:25:12,050 mentioned in this conversation cord 545 00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:14,390 Meyer one of the founders of the CIA 546 00:25:23,110 --> 00:25:18,640 Mary Meyer was his estranged wife and 547 00:25:27,070 --> 00:25:23,120 she was a force to be reckoned with a 548 00:25:31,090 --> 00:25:27,080 beautiful sophisticated woman also from 549 00:25:33,850 --> 00:25:31,100 a very powerful family and she comes to 550 00:25:36,190 --> 00:25:33,860 Timothy Leary's office and says that she 551 00:25:38,650 --> 00:25:36,200 has some friends in Washington who are a 552 00:25:41,230 --> 00:25:38,660 very powerful men and they've taken an 553 00:25:44,590 --> 00:25:41,240 interest in his research and they've 554 00:25:48,310 --> 00:25:44,600 sent her to get some of this psilocybin 555 00:25:50,860 --> 00:25:48,320 pills from him and to and to turn them 556 00:25:54,210 --> 00:25:50,870 on and Tim first kind of brushes her off 557 00:25:56,620 --> 00:25:54,220 its 1950s you know he says oh you know 558 00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:56,630 psychedelics are very why don't you send 559 00:26:01,090 --> 00:25:59,360 the men here directly and she says oh no 560 00:26:01,950 --> 00:26:01,100 you know that's out of the question 561 00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:01,960 well 562 00:26:08,639 --> 00:26:04,480 out that Mary Meyer is the lover and 563 00:26:11,639 --> 00:26:08,649 close confidant of President Kennedy not 564 00:26:14,549 --> 00:26:11,649 just one of these women that he in 565 00:26:18,899 --> 00:26:14,559 the closet but you know a very serious 566 00:26:25,529 --> 00:26:18,909 deep friendship and confidant and lover 567 00:26:28,380 --> 00:26:25,539 and so she goes and turns JFK on to 568 00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:28,390 psilocybin and this is in the in the 569 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:32,080 spring of 1963 at a very very poignant 570 00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:35,370 time in his administration and it seems 571 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:40,590 that these experiences kind of catalyze 572 00:26:48,510 --> 00:26:45,730 and and accelerate JFK's awakening his 573 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:48,520 separation from his father his own his 574 00:26:53,639 --> 00:26:51,370 own sense of his own power and in a kind 575 00:26:57,060 --> 00:26:53,649 of radical departure from the Cold War 576 00:27:00,000 --> 00:26:57,070 policies that he was elected under he 577 00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:00,010 begins a secret correspondence with 578 00:27:06,810 --> 00:27:02,799 Khrushchev he realizes he's being 579 00:27:09,690 --> 00:27:06,820 betrayed by the CIA he makes he gives 580 00:27:11,789 --> 00:27:09,700 the very one of the considered by many 581 00:27:13,860 --> 00:27:11,799 the most important speech ever given by 582 00:27:17,970 --> 00:27:13,870 an American president the peace speech 583 00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:17,980 in which he bypasses his CIA advisors it 584 00:27:23,250 --> 00:27:19,750 doesn't even have the speech vetted and 585 00:27:25,409 --> 00:27:23,260 just announces really this relationship 586 00:27:27,389 --> 00:27:25,419 with Khrushchev the end of the Cold War 587 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:27,399 the beginning of a cooperative space 588 00:27:34,110 --> 00:27:31,090 program and you listen to that speech 589 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:34,120 and it's like a mystic talking that 590 00:27:39,810 --> 00:27:36,130 hasn't and he's talking about how we 591 00:27:41,639 --> 00:27:39,820 breathe the same air and and this is 592 00:27:43,980 --> 00:27:41,649 really so it's interesting because these 593 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:43,990 this mushroom experienced catalyzes 594 00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:48,970 JFK's awakening but it also expedites 595 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:51,640 his assassination that's all interesting 596 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:54,370 and I'm not gonna dispute that because 597 00:28:02,070 --> 00:27:57,850 that might be true but the JFK thing is 598 00:28:04,769 --> 00:28:02,080 just hard to pull apart because take the 599 00:28:08,159 --> 00:28:04,779 the drug part of it I mean at the same 600 00:28:12,060 --> 00:28:08,169 time he's getting these amphetamine 601 00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:12,070 shots from Max Jacobson to a level that 602 00:28:18,110 --> 00:28:15,120 is just insane and he's a Joan 603 00:28:20,030 --> 00:28:18,120 at this point of the highest order and 604 00:28:23,330 --> 00:28:20,040 he doesn't know it and you know it's 605 00:28:27,310 --> 00:28:23,340 back to the the naivete that we look 606 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:27,320 back on and and it's kind of funny and 607 00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:29,370 nostalgic a little bit to think that 608 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:31,260 these folks didn't know what they were 609 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:33,450 playing around with and I guess we 610 00:28:41,270 --> 00:28:35,370 sometimes think we do and maybe we don't 611 00:28:45,140 --> 00:28:41,280 either but yeah so yeah I maybe maybe I 612 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:45,150 just put a little asterisk by all that 613 00:28:51,490 --> 00:28:48,090 yeah well it's I've had an asterisk by 614 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:51,500 it since I first read it in Tim's 615 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:55,290 flashbacks I read that 1983 and I 616 00:28:59,540 --> 00:28:57,330 thought that was extremely interesting I 617 00:29:01,940 --> 00:28:59,550 talked with you know all of Tim's 618 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:01,950 friends about it Frank baron didn't 619 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:04,050 believe this story 620 00:29:11,060 --> 00:29:07,050 he thought Tim was making it up to made 621 00:29:12,830 --> 00:29:11,070 up a lot of things other friends I don't 622 00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:12,840 question the story because I've heard 623 00:29:18,740 --> 00:29:16,110 that through another source as well 624 00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:18,750 actually the guys who wrote the Max 625 00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:21,270 Jacobson book and the name escapes me 626 00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:21,960 right now 627 00:29:26,210 --> 00:29:24,240 the book is dr. feelgood and the 628 00:29:30,169 --> 00:29:26,220 co-author that I was trying to think of 629 00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:30,179 is Bill burns one thing we will get into 630 00:29:38,060 --> 00:29:34,080 as this interview progresses is pulling 631 00:29:41,620 --> 00:29:38,070 apart all the different things we pile 632 00:29:45,910 --> 00:29:41,630 on to this psychedelic experience and 633 00:29:49,130 --> 00:29:45,920 sometimes I think we attach stuff to it 634 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:49,140 and these kind of noble mystical kind of 635 00:29:54,890 --> 00:29:52,710 ways that may be true or may not be true 636 00:29:56,900 --> 00:29:54,900 you know so and we can pull that apart 637 00:29:59,200 --> 00:29:56,910 in the in the through the lens of 638 00:30:02,030 --> 00:29:59,210 looking at the life of people like 639 00:30:05,570 --> 00:30:02,040 Timothy Leary you know and the good and 640 00:30:09,230 --> 00:30:05,580 the bad and the Kirlian beast side and 641 00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:09,240 the Irish kind of street fighter for 642 00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:12,150 democracy for a liberation side and also 643 00:30:17,690 --> 00:30:15,510 just kind of the cool guy kind of side 644 00:30:20,390 --> 00:30:17,700 but also the ego based side you know I 645 00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:20,400 mean so there's we're never going to 646 00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:22,320 talk about we'd ought to just keep a 647 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:23,910 love that's just going to flow and go a 648 00:30:27,410 --> 00:30:25,530 million different places and it's going 649 00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:27,420 to frustrate the out of people but 650 00:30:31,279 --> 00:30:28,830 I love how you're throwing out 651 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:31,289 winces two things and I'm throwing out 652 00:30:36,529 --> 00:30:33,210 half-baked references to things and 653 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:36,539 people will create their own journey in 654 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:39,090 terms of how to follow this stream of 655 00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:41,010 thought yeah well you're absolutely 656 00:30:48,049 --> 00:30:43,710 right I mean about Tim and this is why I 657 00:30:50,539 --> 00:30:48,059 did the book I did about him in the way 658 00:30:54,289 --> 00:30:50,549 that I did it I mean he was such a he 659 00:30:59,299 --> 00:30:54,299 was such a mercurial character he was he 660 00:31:03,019 --> 00:30:59,309 was part prophet part poet part madman 661 00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:03,029 he had he had kind of psychotic and you 662 00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:07,679 know really egocentric narcissistic 663 00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:10,049 wounds but he had a brilliance 664 00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,720 about him too and there were times I 665 00:31:16,129 --> 00:31:14,399 remember you know near the end of his 666 00:31:18,310 --> 00:31:16,139 life looking at him and he would sort of 667 00:31:21,379 --> 00:31:18,320 morph you know one minute he's like a 668 00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:21,389 sparkly sort of Zen master elf and 669 00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:24,480 wisdom and humor incredible incredibly 670 00:31:31,129 --> 00:31:27,510 funny man other times he just like had 671 00:31:33,529 --> 00:31:31,139 this twisted pained kind of psychotic 672 00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:33,539 you mentioned croute Crowley and you 673 00:31:38,269 --> 00:31:36,870 know like very very complicated and so 674 00:31:39,470 --> 00:31:38,279 there's no real way to take a picture of 675 00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:39,480 him you have to just take a lot of 676 00:31:45,139 --> 00:31:41,519 pictures of him and create a kind of 677 00:31:47,539 --> 00:31:45,149 mosaic of this of this complex character 678 00:31:49,909 --> 00:31:47,549 that had a you know such an impact on 679 00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:49,919 the on the latter half of the of the 680 00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:52,080 last century Robert can I get you while 681 00:31:59,560 --> 00:31:54,809 you're there can you spend a minute and 682 00:32:02,690 --> 00:31:59,570 talk about the Kirlian demonic beasts 683 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:02,700 psychopath with you so he says at one 684 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:05,250 point this is Timothy Leary says I am 685 00:32:09,620 --> 00:32:08,130 the reincarnation of Crowley and other 686 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:09,630 time he says I'm the Beast and he says 687 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:12,090 I'm a psychopath and and so is there 688 00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:14,370 this kind of do you believe that there's 689 00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:16,950 some kind of demonic entity that he's 690 00:32:23,149 --> 00:32:19,860 invited in or do you think he's just 691 00:32:25,070 --> 00:32:23,159 playing with that on some extended 692 00:32:27,529 --> 00:32:25,080 consciousness level or what do you 693 00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:27,539 think's going on there well okay so I've 694 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:29,760 only really come to try to understand 695 00:32:35,149 --> 00:32:33,330 his Crowley period recently and and to 696 00:32:37,970 --> 00:32:35,159 be honest I do not understand it very 697 00:32:41,419 --> 00:32:37,980 well except to say this and this was a 698 00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:41,429 phrase that rhombic put in my head and I 699 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:42,400 just loved it he 700 00:32:48,990 --> 00:32:45,610 said Tim Tim inhabited metaphors the way 701 00:32:51,630 --> 00:32:49,000 of snail and habits shells he tried 702 00:32:55,350 --> 00:32:51,640 every you know he was he grew up when he 703 00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:55,360 got into LSD he then went through a 704 00:33:00,720 --> 00:32:58,090 whole range of different paradigms I 705 00:33:02,790 --> 00:33:00,730 mean first what the order but you know 706 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:02,800 he went he got into Taoism he wrote the 707 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:05,290 he wrote those psychedelic prayers based 708 00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:07,450 on the doubt I Ching he got into 709 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:09,760 Buddhism he did the you know the 710 00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:11,650 psychedelic experience based on the 711 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:14,230 Tibetan Book of the Dead he was a very 712 00:33:20,610 --> 00:33:17,050 scientific thinker yeah he went off into 713 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:20,620 this Crowley sort of way he had he had a 714 00:33:25,020 --> 00:33:23,170 Catholic streak in him believe it or not 715 00:33:26,970 --> 00:33:25,030 that you know kind of came out right 716 00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:26,980 toward the very end of his life just a 717 00:33:33,090 --> 00:33:29,080 week before he died he dressed in a 718 00:33:36,060 --> 00:33:33,100 tuxedo and went to Catholic Mass and and 719 00:33:37,980 --> 00:33:36,070 I and I don't you know I mean Crowley 720 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:37,990 you could do a whole we could spend him 721 00:33:43,410 --> 00:33:40,330 a month talking about Crowley and what a 722 00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:43,420 what a sick puppy he was and what an 723 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:46,710 impact he may well have had on not just 724 00:33:54,450 --> 00:33:51,730 Leary but Aldous Huxley and you know 725 00:33:57,660 --> 00:33:54,460 what was the role of Crowley in this 726 00:33:59,910 --> 00:33:57,670 modern mind-control movement that we're 727 00:34:01,620 --> 00:33:59,920 talking about so I'm not really expert 728 00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:01,630 on that but that's that's my thing is 729 00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:03,910 the Tim never really took anything very 730 00:34:07,650 --> 00:34:04,720 seriously 731 00:34:10,020 --> 00:34:07,660 he tried stuff he tried it on he got 732 00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:10,030 into it and he and he left it you know 733 00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:12,310 he famously said near the end of his 734 00:34:20,250 --> 00:34:14,710 life he said look he said a third of 735 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:20,260 what I've said is a third of 736 00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:24,010 what I've said is dead wrong and then he 737 00:34:31,530 --> 00:34:28,000 say but a third word base hits and that 738 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:31,540 gives me a 333 batting average enough 739 00:34:36,330 --> 00:34:34,330 for the Hall of Fame that's the kind of 740 00:34:41,090 --> 00:34:36,340 way he had this yet this wonderfully 741 00:34:43,860 --> 00:34:41,100 charming self-effacing quality that I 742 00:34:46,139 --> 00:34:43,870 never spoke with him about Crowley but I 743 00:34:48,090 --> 00:34:46,149 just get the feeling that he would like 744 00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:48,100 almost everything else except for 745 00:34:52,980 --> 00:34:50,560 question authority that was the abiding 746 00:34:55,659 --> 00:34:52,990 theme through his whole life it was 747 00:34:58,510 --> 00:34:55,669 about redirecting 748 00:35:03,280 --> 00:34:58,520 authority from institutions and leaders 749 00:35:06,579 --> 00:35:03,290 and gurus and ideas and redirect it back 750 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:06,589 into the human psyche to take 751 00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:09,410 responsibility for yourself to question 752 00:35:14,859 --> 00:35:11,680 authority and and to empower individuals 753 00:35:16,270 --> 00:35:14,869 that's the theme that continues that's 754 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:16,280 throughout his whole life from his 755 00:35:22,059 --> 00:35:19,010 childhood all the way to to the end of 756 00:35:25,569 --> 00:35:22,069 his life wow that is so cool and it's 757 00:35:30,099 --> 00:35:25,579 actually as you speak giving me a new 758 00:35:32,770 --> 00:35:30,109 appreciation for Leary because it just 759 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:32,780 he's very he's the ultimate heretic he's 760 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:35,210 the ultimate ultimate Gnostic creating 761 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:37,910 better than the Creator God's kind of 762 00:35:41,170 --> 00:35:39,890 thing can you spend maybe a minute I'm 763 00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:41,180 just going to kind of pull you in these 764 00:35:47,799 --> 00:35:43,790 random directions what is it that you 765 00:35:50,530 --> 00:35:47,809 found in Tim's history his early 766 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:50,540 childhood I love this idea of what 767 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:51,650 you're talking about the kind of the 768 00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:53,450 ultimate a kind of class from the 769 00:35:58,930 --> 00:35:56,240 beginning thing what springs to mind 770 00:36:02,589 --> 00:35:58,940 well I don't know how to answer that 771 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:02,599 quickly I'm well into a screenplay about 772 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:04,250 his life and when you asked this 773 00:36:09,309 --> 00:36:06,530 question I just think of the setup he 774 00:36:12,940 --> 00:36:09,319 had as a young boy he writes about it in 775 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:12,950 flashbacks his grandfather was he said 776 00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:16,250 the only like sane influence on his 777 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:19,040 young life and he up till he was about 778 00:36:24,370 --> 00:36:21,170 10 or 12 years old he was under the 779 00:36:26,799 --> 00:36:24,380 impression that his grandfather was the 780 00:36:28,539 --> 00:36:26,809 wealthiest guy in the valley Springfield 781 00:36:32,380 --> 00:36:28,549 Massachusetts and he lived in this big 782 00:36:34,750 --> 00:36:32,390 house and and then his father was the 783 00:36:36,430 --> 00:36:34,760 kind of narrow do well he was a dentist 784 00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:36,440 but he didn't really practice dentistry 785 00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:39,680 he was a drunk he was abusive to Tim and 786 00:36:45,010 --> 00:36:42,079 his and his mother and he was just 787 00:36:47,890 --> 00:36:45,020 waiting for his father to die well on 788 00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:47,900 the day that his grandfather finally 789 00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:51,440 does die they find out that he's not a 790 00:36:57,339 --> 00:36:54,760 wealthy man at all he's actually broke 791 00:36:58,599 --> 00:36:57,349 he just was able to carry out this 792 00:37:00,400 --> 00:36:58,609 impression that the end of the 793 00:37:02,530 --> 00:37:00,410 depression that wiped out his fortune 794 00:37:04,450 --> 00:37:02,540 and so can you imagine that you're a 12 795 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:04,460 year old boy and your grandfather is 796 00:37:08,740 --> 00:37:06,530 your is your you know your main 797 00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:08,750 archetype in your life to Sephora tea 798 00:37:15,010 --> 00:37:12,500 figure this beautiful cultivated man he 799 00:37:17,170 --> 00:37:15,020 turns out he was just a rascal trickster 800 00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:17,180 the whole time and left the family 801 00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:20,240 nothing and then Tim's father abandoned 802 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:22,310 the family just takes off he never sees 803 00:37:25,420 --> 00:37:22,730 him again 804 00:37:28,150 --> 00:37:25,430 and what a setup you know that is that's 805 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:28,160 that's uh that's really something and so 806 00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:29,450 all his life you mean think of the 807 00:37:36,610 --> 00:37:32,240 relationship that sets up in your psyche 808 00:37:39,850 --> 00:37:36,620 toward authority figures and you know it 809 00:37:43,630 --> 00:37:39,860 can go on from there I loved most I have 810 00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:43,640 to say his sense of humor and his his 811 00:37:50,290 --> 00:37:46,990 ability to just be in the moment and 812 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:50,300 really the way he connected with people 813 00:37:55,330 --> 00:37:53,570 and you can you hear this from anybody 814 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:55,340 that knew him you know and you when you 815 00:38:01,360 --> 00:37:57,410 got to spend time with him he was he was 816 00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:01,370 a brilliant clinician and and uh you 817 00:38:08,130 --> 00:38:04,640 know a superb psychotherapist just for 818 00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:08,140 the way he connected with you and he 819 00:38:15,130 --> 00:38:11,990 made sure you knew you were being heard 820 00:38:17,770 --> 00:38:15,140 and seen for who you were and it was a 821 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:17,780 it was a gift he had to just bring out 822 00:38:21,940 --> 00:38:20,450 bring out this quality in people and you 823 00:38:23,620 --> 00:38:21,950 know that toward the end of his life I 824 00:38:25,810 --> 00:38:23,630 mean there were you know there were days 825 00:38:27,970 --> 00:38:25,820 that there were just lines of people 826 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:27,980 coming from all over the world to get 827 00:38:33,490 --> 00:38:32,210 one more hit of that Leary presence I'll 828 00:38:36,490 --> 00:38:33,500 always be grateful for that 829 00:38:39,130 --> 00:38:36,500 that's awesome great story I love that 830 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:39,140 childhood story I always found this the 831 00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:41,930 suicide of his wife thing what did that 832 00:38:48,550 --> 00:38:45,680 do to him that has to be a real turning 833 00:38:52,810 --> 00:38:48,560 point yes or no or yeah that was that 834 00:38:55,210 --> 00:38:52,820 was quite brutal his first wife who he 835 00:38:58,090 --> 00:38:55,220 was very much in love with killed 836 00:39:01,090 --> 00:38:58,100 herself and then in the morning of his 837 00:39:03,430 --> 00:39:01,100 35th birthday they'd had kind of an open 838 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:03,440 relationship they were they were in the 839 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:06,050 50s in Berkeley they were he was a 840 00:39:13,930 --> 00:39:10,730 professor and she they were swingers and 841 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:13,940 they had a deal like you could you could 842 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:14,930 around 843 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:18,050 but you couldn't fall in love and Tim 844 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:21,050 Tim kind of you know went against that 845 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:21,930 and you 846 00:39:26,780 --> 00:39:23,970 no had has had an apartment with his 847 00:39:29,569 --> 00:39:26,790 lover and Mara and they were then they 848 00:39:32,569 --> 00:39:29,579 drank a lot and she was she much she was 849 00:39:36,490 --> 00:39:32,579 kind of manic-depressive he had two 850 00:39:41,690 --> 00:39:36,500 children that he you know loved and and 851 00:39:44,210 --> 00:39:41,700 she just killed herself and it blew him 852 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:44,220 away and you know maybe something he 853 00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:46,410 never recovered from these the innermost 854 00:39:52,819 --> 00:39:49,200 circle of his life is really very very 855 00:39:55,370 --> 00:39:52,829 tragic you know his son Jack what got to 856 00:39:58,819 --> 00:39:55,380 know not very well but we spent an 857 00:40:05,120 --> 00:39:58,829 afternoon together at Tim's I I flew 858 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:05,130 down with Jack to see Tim about a month 859 00:40:10,460 --> 00:40:07,410 before he died he hadn't seen him for 15 860 00:40:14,210 --> 00:40:10,470 years and so I was you know kind of 861 00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:14,220 gently exploring Jack's sense of Tim and 862 00:40:20,930 --> 00:40:17,280 you know Jack was a really fine man 863 00:40:22,910 --> 00:40:20,940 still alive but is he just you know he 864 00:40:25,130 --> 00:40:22,920 thought his father was a psychopath and 865 00:40:27,230 --> 00:40:25,140 they went through some you know awful 866 00:40:31,549 --> 00:40:27,240 awful and then of course his 867 00:40:34,490 --> 00:40:31,559 daughter also committed suicide she I 868 00:40:37,940 --> 00:40:34,500 believe she hanged herself in a jail 869 00:40:39,950 --> 00:40:37,950 cell while she was waiting charges on 870 00:40:43,069 --> 00:40:39,960 attempted murder something really 871 00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:43,079 terrible like that and Tim was you know 872 00:40:47,569 --> 00:40:45,630 Tim carried those wounds right up till 873 00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:47,579 the end of his life I was going through 874 00:40:53,569 --> 00:40:49,760 his archives with him and finding little 875 00:40:55,870 --> 00:40:53,579 you know drawings that Susan made and 876 00:40:59,630 --> 00:40:55,880 Tim would just break down in tears and 877 00:41:01,660 --> 00:40:59,640 so yeah that innermost circle was very 878 00:41:04,339 --> 00:41:01,670 very tragic and very very painful 879 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:04,349 anybody kind of made up for it in I mean 880 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:06,690 not that he made up for it but he tried 881 00:41:13,819 --> 00:41:10,250 to compensate for it by his next circle 882 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:13,829 because Tim's house toward the end of 883 00:41:18,829 --> 00:41:16,650 his life was full of young people you 884 00:41:22,609 --> 00:41:18,839 know in their 20s and he just you know 885 00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:22,619 the kind of positive and and creative 886 00:41:28,339 --> 00:41:25,680 impulse that he inspired in people and 887 00:41:31,099 --> 00:41:28,349 that is his extended family and the love 888 00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:31,109 and and rapport that he had with 889 00:41:35,749 --> 00:41:33,380 everybody was really quite remarkable 890 00:41:38,629 --> 00:41:35,759 yeah very complicated 891 00:41:41,329 --> 00:41:38,639 director I'm glad Robert that we went 892 00:41:44,229 --> 00:41:41,339 down that little that little path that 893 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:44,239 little digression for a while because we 894 00:41:51,139 --> 00:41:47,130 were speaking actually before we hit 895 00:41:53,899 --> 00:41:51,149 record button about how the reality of 896 00:41:56,659 --> 00:41:53,909 the social engineering part of this 897 00:41:59,659 --> 00:41:56,669 thing that you kind of got into the OSS 898 00:42:01,969 --> 00:41:59,669 becomes the Fourth Reich here in the 899 00:42:04,759 --> 00:42:01,979 United States and Dulles and CIA all 900 00:42:06,499 --> 00:42:04,769 this undeniable horrible dark stuff that 901 00:42:09,199 --> 00:42:06,509 they're doing that goes way beyond any 902 00:42:11,870 --> 00:42:09,209 kind of license that the American people 903 00:42:16,129 --> 00:42:11,880 gave them to protect us quote-unquote 904 00:42:19,419 --> 00:42:16,139 and then we attach figures like Leary to 905 00:42:22,069 --> 00:42:19,429 that and we get all this you know 906 00:42:24,889 --> 00:42:22,079 frustration and also all this divisive 907 00:42:26,569 --> 00:42:24,899 nough sebat you know CIA he was CIA he 908 00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:26,579 was a lifetime player he was an actor 909 00:42:32,449 --> 00:42:28,049 you know all the rest of stuff which 910 00:42:35,299 --> 00:42:32,459 there's some reality to but these are 911 00:42:39,499 --> 00:42:35,309 human beings and complex human beings 912 00:42:42,529 --> 00:42:39,509 and really people who've lived a whole 913 00:42:45,620 --> 00:42:42,539 life and I think that you fall into that 914 00:42:47,959 --> 00:42:45,630 category to it not with the CIA thing 915 00:42:50,569 --> 00:42:47,969 although indirectly I guess you do I 916 00:42:53,659 --> 00:42:50,579 love your story you know you get the 917 00:42:56,749 --> 00:42:53,669 call and you say okay my hippie ass 918 00:43:00,049 --> 00:42:56,759 better clean up put on a suit drive the 919 00:43:02,749 --> 00:43:00,059 Lincoln over and see if I can get a job 920 00:43:04,370 --> 00:43:02,759 with this guy I mean maybe we want to 921 00:43:06,589 --> 00:43:04,380 jump to that part in the story because 922 00:43:08,989 --> 00:43:06,599 it it kind of weaves its way back into 923 00:43:10,699 --> 00:43:08,999 this whole thing - right well I think 924 00:43:15,409 --> 00:43:10,709 you're talking about wasps in there 925 00:43:17,479 --> 00:43:15,419 right I think I am right well you know 926 00:43:21,019 --> 00:43:17,489 Gordon Lawson is another you know he 927 00:43:24,229 --> 00:43:21,029 he's the opposite character to Leary now 928 00:43:27,099 --> 00:43:24,239 your your listeners probably know that 929 00:43:30,669 --> 00:43:27,109 Gordon Lawson was that this this 930 00:43:34,909 --> 00:43:30,679 psychedelic phenomenon in modern America 931 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:34,919 really started because of a few stages 932 00:43:44,209 --> 00:43:38,130 but one of the most important events was 933 00:43:46,579 --> 00:43:44,219 the article in Life magazine in 1957 934 00:43:48,829 --> 00:43:46,589 Life magazine write the most popular 935 00:43:53,089 --> 00:43:48,839 periodical in America that's 936 00:43:56,620 --> 00:43:53,099 onde and really run operated very 937 00:44:00,049 --> 00:43:56,630 hands-on owner and editor of henry luce 938 00:44:03,079 --> 00:44:00,059 right so henry luce is a skullenbones 939 00:44:05,089 --> 00:44:03,089 guy he's you know he was we started 940 00:44:08,059 --> 00:44:05,099 propping up Adolf Hitler and Mussolini 941 00:44:10,670 --> 00:44:08,069 and his articles and he wrote a very 942 00:44:11,690 --> 00:44:10,680 very important paper called the American 943 00:44:15,049 --> 00:44:11,700 Century 944 00:44:18,709 --> 00:44:15,059 in 1934 back to your operation 945 00:44:21,529 --> 00:44:18,719 Mockingbird total insider and and what 946 00:44:24,469 --> 00:44:21,539 is the analogy we could give people who 947 00:44:27,950 --> 00:44:24,479 are younger than us to what Life 948 00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:27,960 magazine meant you know I mean this is 949 00:44:32,660 --> 00:44:30,390 where look like we talked about Camelot 950 00:44:34,999 --> 00:44:32,670 in JFK which people can't even get 951 00:44:37,069 --> 00:44:35,009 although maybe you got it a little bit 952 00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:37,079 with Obama and the halo that was around 953 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:37,680 him 954 00:44:42,890 --> 00:44:39,690 but there was this unbelievable hail or 955 00:44:47,469 --> 00:44:42,900 on JFK and Life magazine was like you 956 00:44:50,539 --> 00:44:47,479 know the the vehicle for plugging into 957 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:50,549 culture pop culture but modern culture 958 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:52,650 it was it it was everything rolled into 959 00:44:57,319 --> 00:44:55,170 one right yeah yep that's right yep it 960 00:45:00,319 --> 00:44:57,329 was it was painting a picture for how to 961 00:45:02,930 --> 00:45:00,329 be thinking of Norman Rockwell paintings 962 00:45:06,769 --> 00:45:02,940 and it was it was painting a picture it 963 00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:06,779 was leading the way for modeling the 964 00:45:13,299 --> 00:45:09,660 ideal life for the American citizen the 965 00:45:16,009 --> 00:45:13,309 consumer this this you know we had just 966 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:16,019 so-called seemingly defeated the Nazis 967 00:45:22,009 --> 00:45:19,170 we were the world heroes you know this 968 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:22,019 this very important concept of American 969 00:45:28,670 --> 00:45:25,650 exceptionalism which predates this but 970 00:45:32,299 --> 00:45:28,680 was really you know fluffed up by Henry 971 00:45:35,180 --> 00:45:32,309 Luce to give this to give this sense of 972 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:35,190 American pride and how we were the you 973 00:45:41,479 --> 00:45:37,729 know the shining light on the hill and 974 00:45:44,749 --> 00:45:41,489 and so and so there's an article there 975 00:45:49,059 --> 00:45:44,759 in 1957 by this Wall Street banker 976 00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:49,069 Gordon Lawson who the culmination of a 977 00:45:57,039 --> 00:45:52,640 thirty-year hobby goes to Mexico and 978 00:46:00,469 --> 00:45:57,049 finds this mushroom it's used in these 979 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:00,479 religious ceremonies by the Mazatec 980 00:46:05,550 --> 00:46:02,530 Indian shamaness 981 00:46:08,610 --> 00:46:05,560 or sabi or curandera Maria Sabina and 982 00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:08,620 and now millions of people are aware of 983 00:46:13,260 --> 00:46:11,200 this magic mushroom I think that's the 984 00:46:16,110 --> 00:46:13,270 title of the article magic mushroom that 985 00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,120 causes visions and something this 986 00:46:20,970 --> 00:46:18,640 putting this out there in like you know 987 00:46:23,550 --> 00:46:20,980 a lot of people who study psychedelic 988 00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:23,560 history get this story that this is 989 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:25,510 Waffen just like on his own independent 990 00:46:31,950 --> 00:46:28,690 hobby who writes this as this discovery 991 00:46:34,650 --> 00:46:31,960 and writes this article but much later 992 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:34,660 on in my career even after I had gotten 993 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:37,210 to know Wasson and you know visited him 994 00:46:41,490 --> 00:46:40,090 in his house a number of times and but 995 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:41,500 tell that story that's such an awesome 996 00:46:47,850 --> 00:46:44,650 story talk about set up and talk about 997 00:46:50,430 --> 00:46:47,860 you know the strange ways that we 998 00:46:53,790 --> 00:46:50,440 connect with our own history with our 999 00:46:56,100 --> 00:46:53,800 own paths do you do you want to share 1000 00:46:58,410 --> 00:46:56,110 that I mean just how that even comes to 1001 00:47:02,070 --> 00:46:58,420 be and what that was like for you and 1002 00:47:04,020 --> 00:47:02,080 you mean how I came to know Watson yeah 1003 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:04,030 let's start with the driving up with the 1004 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:05,530 link and I can't get that out of my head 1005 00:47:10,650 --> 00:47:07,810 you know like oh I'm gonna go meet this 1006 00:47:12,930 --> 00:47:10,660 guy and the next thing you know it's so 1007 00:47:14,730 --> 00:47:12,940 cool he's invited me in and now you know 1008 00:47:17,430 --> 00:47:14,740 I'm in his inner circle and I'm 1009 00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:17,440 interviewing him yeah there were a lot 1010 00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:18,640 of things that were happening during 1011 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:21,550 those days it was quite I had taken a 1012 00:47:27,900 --> 00:47:25,810 little I had a leave of absence from 1013 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:27,910 graduate school I was at the University 1014 00:47:34,770 --> 00:47:29,650 of Chicago Divinity School and I had 1015 00:47:36,450 --> 00:47:34,780 taken a leave of absence and I was so 1016 00:47:39,990 --> 00:47:36,460 very interested in seeing if I could 1017 00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:40,000 help stir up this subject of psychedelic 1018 00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:44,110 drugs again but not a public thing again 1019 00:47:49,350 --> 00:47:46,480 I thought Leary had made an error that I 1020 00:47:51,420 --> 00:47:49,360 had recognized that there was that these 1021 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:51,430 drugs were incredibly interesting but 1022 00:47:57,210 --> 00:47:54,010 not not four not four taken and go to 1023 00:47:59,760 --> 00:47:57,220 concerts or all that 6t stuff but by 1024 00:48:02,610 --> 00:47:59,770 this time I was a serious student of the 1025 00:48:04,530 --> 00:48:02,620 religious experience and realized that 1026 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:04,540 at the very root of our environmental 1027 00:48:09,570 --> 00:48:07,210 crisis and political crisis was a was a 1028 00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:09,580 spiritual crisis and that if we could if 1029 00:48:15,730 --> 00:48:11,440 we could somehow you know reconnect with 1030 00:48:18,609 --> 00:48:15,740 the ground of being and you know it's 1031 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:18,619 people would start to you know wake up 1032 00:48:23,260 --> 00:48:20,410 and an understanding the 1033 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:23,270 interrelationships and and the golden 1034 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:26,810 rule and you know philosophical and 1035 00:48:31,050 --> 00:48:28,730 mystical notions like this so I was I 1036 00:48:34,510 --> 00:48:31,060 had gone about for a year or so 1037 00:48:36,910 --> 00:48:34,520 organizing private meetings at you know 1038 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:36,920 kind of elite places so one of these was 1039 00:48:40,750 --> 00:48:39,050 at Harvard I was spending some time my 1040 00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:40,760 girlfriend was a Harvard student and I 1041 00:48:45,220 --> 00:48:42,800 was living in Cambridge and I went into 1042 00:48:47,350 --> 00:48:45,230 DIC Shelties office and I said I'd like 1043 00:48:49,690 --> 00:48:47,360 to have a meeting here of all the people 1044 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:49,700 that had done research with psychedelic 1045 00:48:53,470 --> 00:48:51,650 drugs who recognized that they're 1046 00:48:55,930 --> 00:48:53,480 important who don't want to create 1047 00:48:58,590 --> 00:48:55,940 another hysterical thing like the 60s 1048 00:49:01,330 --> 00:48:58,600 but want to resume some of the more 1049 00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:01,340 grounded scientific religious 1050 00:49:06,570 --> 00:49:03,950 applications of these drugs so Schulte 1051 00:49:10,990 --> 00:49:06,580 said you know dick Shelties the great 1052 00:49:13,900 --> 00:49:11,000 ethno botanist and and he said he said 1053 00:49:15,490 --> 00:49:13,910 why don't you invite Gordon Lawson I was 1054 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:15,500 like wow Gordon Lawson that's like 1055 00:49:20,590 --> 00:49:18,410 saying why don't you invite Moses and I 1056 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:20,600 was as well you know I he just picks up 1057 00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:22,130 the phone shultiess I remember he even 1058 00:49:28,180 --> 00:49:24,980 had a dial phone and he dials Wasson's 1059 00:49:30,490 --> 00:49:28,190 number and hands me the phone 1060 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:30,500 and I'm like holy I'm talking to 1061 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:32,810 Gordon Lawson and Gordon Watson says 1062 00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:34,490 what a great idea why don't you come and 1063 00:49:38,770 --> 00:49:37,730 come and over and visit and this is what 1064 00:49:44,890 --> 00:49:38,780 you Robert 1065 00:49:47,650 --> 00:49:44,900 this is a 1983 I think ok so we're we're 1066 00:49:49,540 --> 00:49:47,660 through the 60s and we're really through 1067 00:49:51,730 --> 00:49:49,550 the 70s which is really when the 1068 00:49:53,890 --> 00:49:51,740 psychedelic bomb goes off I think even 1069 00:49:54,460 --> 00:49:53,900 more because it really kind of gets out 1070 00:49:57,340 --> 00:49:54,470 of control 1071 00:49:59,140 --> 00:49:57,350 so are we war on drugs at this point 1072 00:50:01,090 --> 00:49:59,150 yeah no we're not fight war on drugs 1073 00:50:03,310 --> 00:50:01,100 we're in this little period in this lull 1074 00:50:05,620 --> 00:50:03,320 you know like you said the psychedelic 1075 00:50:08,220 --> 00:50:05,630 drugs were a big thing but by the by the 1076 00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:08,230 later 70s they started to sort of 1077 00:50:13,570 --> 00:50:11,359 disappear from the media and there was a 1078 00:50:15,340 --> 00:50:13,580 period there where there wasn't anything 1079 00:50:18,490 --> 00:50:15,350 going on and it seemed like a really 1080 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:18,500 good time to bring up the conversation 1081 00:50:23,260 --> 00:50:20,690 again and look at these drugs and look 1082 00:50:25,660 --> 00:50:23,270 at their look at their use as adjuncts 1083 00:50:28,060 --> 00:50:25,670 to psychotherapy look at them as means 1084 00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:28,070 to catalyze religious experience that's 1085 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:29,380 what I was doing 1086 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:33,130 and I got a little haircut and I 1087 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:35,530 borrowed my father's Lincoln Continental 1088 00:50:42,990 --> 00:50:38,530 and one of his sport jackets and drove 1089 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:43,000 down to Danbury Connecticut and began my 1090 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:47,290 my rapport with Gordon Watson and you 1091 00:50:53,850 --> 00:50:50,050 know at that time I was really in awe of 1092 00:50:55,590 --> 00:50:53,860 the guy and I thought that his I'd read 1093 00:50:58,460 --> 00:50:55,600 all of his books you know his books are 1094 00:51:01,050 --> 00:50:58,470 really I still think of the Miss 1095 00:51:03,210 --> 00:51:01,060 masterpieces but I had this which I'll 1096 00:51:05,310 --> 00:51:03,220 get to another layer of realization 1097 00:51:08,430 --> 00:51:05,320 about him you know he wrote these books 1098 00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:08,440 about the role of the mushroom in many 1099 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:10,480 of the world's most significant 1100 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:13,210 religious and philosophical systems you 1101 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:17,770 know the Vedic soma and the kikiyaon of 1102 00:51:22,020 --> 00:51:19,890 the ilis in Ian's mysteries one of the 1103 00:51:25,170 --> 00:51:22,030 longest-running and most important 1104 00:51:27,090 --> 00:51:25,180 mystical ceremonies of all of history in 1105 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:27,100 many ways considered that kind of the 1106 00:51:32,670 --> 00:51:29,290 bedrock of the Western philosophical 1107 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:32,680 tradition this is the Greeks right this 1108 00:51:37,230 --> 00:51:35,170 is the Greeks who then went on the 1109 00:51:38,670 --> 00:51:37,240 journey and the death journey and 1110 00:51:40,350 --> 00:51:38,680 brought back there were not a 1111 00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:40,360 psychedelic journey on a death journey 1112 00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:42,400 and they brought it back in it changed 1113 00:51:47,310 --> 00:51:45,310 their history it was you know the way 1114 00:51:48,810 --> 00:51:47,320 that they made major decisions about how 1115 00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:48,820 to structure their culture how to go to 1116 00:51:53,150 --> 00:51:50,830 war all that stuff so yeah yeah the 1117 00:51:56,190 --> 00:51:53,160 fascinating and rich went on for like 1118 00:51:58,590 --> 00:51:56,200 1,500 years this is where the Christian 1119 00:52:00,600 --> 00:51:58,600 Eucharist comes from derives from the 1120 00:52:05,340 --> 00:52:00,610 ancient Greek the sacrament of the 1121 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:05,350 licinia mysteries and and Wasson and an 1122 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:08,170 Albert Hofmann you know who I also got 1123 00:52:14,910 --> 00:52:09,610 to know very well wrote a book together 1124 00:52:17,070 --> 00:52:14,920 on this the road to a lusus and so 1125 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:17,080 anyway Wasson was this towering figure 1126 00:52:23,220 --> 00:52:20,650 and I was I felt really just privileged 1127 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:23,230 and kind of blessed to be welcomed into 1128 00:52:27,540 --> 00:52:25,810 his home and invited me to live there 1129 00:52:30,630 --> 00:52:27,550 with him he was near the end of his life 1130 00:52:34,650 --> 00:52:30,640 he was getting his archives ready to 1131 00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:34,660 give to Harvard yeah I was like a you 1132 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:36,720 know kid in a candy shop in a way and 1133 00:52:43,290 --> 00:52:40,570 that's how that began now that this then 1134 00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:43,300 takes another shift so 1135 00:52:51,170 --> 00:52:48,640 years go by wasun dies in 85 I decide to 1136 00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:51,180 pick up the thread of his life 1137 00:52:57,180 --> 00:52:54,640 now I've jumped ahead it's um the early 1138 00:53:00,780 --> 00:52:57,190 days of this century and I got the 1139 00:53:02,340 --> 00:53:00,790 copyrights to his books family the state 1140 00:53:04,380 --> 00:53:02,350 gave me the copyrights and I was going 1141 00:53:07,500 --> 00:53:04,390 to come out with new editions and then I 1142 00:53:10,050 --> 00:53:07,510 got a little money to begin to explore 1143 00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:10,060 creating a documentary film about him 1144 00:53:15,420 --> 00:53:12,910 and I was given access to his archives 1145 00:53:16,980 --> 00:53:15,430 not just access to his archives I mean 1146 00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:16,990 they treated me like a prince for 1147 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:18,720 Christ's sakes Harvard gave me this 1148 00:53:24,810 --> 00:53:22,330 corner office and the herb area and I 1149 00:53:28,140 --> 00:53:24,820 had a secretary and she would bring me 1150 00:53:30,030 --> 00:53:28,150 trays of slides and I was mostly 1151 00:53:31,890 --> 00:53:30,040 interested in the photographs and all 1152 00:53:34,770 --> 00:53:31,900 the mushrooms stuff but one day I just 1153 00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:34,780 decided to I noticed there was a file on 1154 00:53:40,410 --> 00:53:38,350 his correspondences and I decided to 1155 00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:40,420 just kind of go off into there and I 1156 00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:42,250 asked for that tray and suddenly i'm 1157 00:53:49,710 --> 00:53:46,900 reading his letters and i realize my god 1158 00:53:51,390 --> 00:53:49,720 he's not just a banker i mean it's a 1159 00:53:54,780 --> 00:53:51,400 banker like a guy who deals with 1160 00:53:57,630 --> 00:53:54,790 interest rates or you know retirement 1161 00:54:00,210 --> 00:53:57,640 funds or something he's like he's on the 1162 00:54:01,859 --> 00:54:00,220 very inner circle you've mentioned a 1163 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:01,869 couple of these names you mentioned like 1164 00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:07,050 the Vannevar Bush and Allen Dulles and 1165 00:54:14,370 --> 00:54:11,440 George Kennan and John Foster Dulles 1166 00:54:17,849 --> 00:54:14,380 these are like Watson's drinking buddies 1167 00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:17,859 Henry Luce these are the Fourth Reich 1168 00:54:25,020 --> 00:54:21,310 guys these are the originators founders 1169 00:54:28,140 --> 00:54:25,030 of the CIA out of the OSS but these 1170 00:54:30,270 --> 00:54:28,150 aren't the white hat CIA guys these are 1171 00:54:33,210 --> 00:54:30,280 more of the black hats yeah hey guys not 1172 00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:33,220 that Wasson was but or not that we can 1173 00:54:38,070 --> 00:54:35,920 ever put one hat or another on those 1174 00:54:41,070 --> 00:54:38,080 guys but continue with the story I just 1175 00:54:43,050 --> 00:54:41,080 want to add that that context that yeah 1176 00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:43,060 yeah it was quite a thing for me I'm 1177 00:54:47,550 --> 00:54:45,520 there in Cambridge I was actually 1178 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:47,560 staying with a person I don't know if 1179 00:54:53,070 --> 00:54:48,970 we're going to get a chance to talk 1180 00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:53,080 about him rick doblin who is the founder 1181 00:54:57,060 --> 00:54:55,359 of the multidisciplinary Association for 1182 00:54:59,850 --> 00:54:57,070 psychedelic studies and a former 1183 00:55:01,950 --> 00:54:59,860 research subject of mine that's how he 1184 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:01,960 got em DMA but I was a guest in his 1185 00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:04,450 attic and I was spending my days going 1186 00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:06,310 through these archives and it was really 1187 00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:09,250 like um hmm I thought wow that's really 1188 00:55:14,430 --> 00:55:12,400 really interesting that this is that 1189 00:55:17,220 --> 00:55:14,440 nobody knew this you know like the 1190 00:55:18,810 --> 00:55:17,230 legend of Wasson just kind of people 1191 00:55:22,620 --> 00:55:18,820 didn't know that his or it was glossed 1192 00:55:25,170 --> 00:55:22,630 over was curious enough that the a 1193 00:55:28,110 --> 00:55:25,180 psychedelic movement was started by a 1194 00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:28,120 Wall Street banker but this is again not 1195 00:55:32,490 --> 00:55:30,880 just a banker like JP Morgan is a bank 1196 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:32,500 but it's also it's really more like a 1197 00:55:38,940 --> 00:55:36,130 major political force I mean bort Morgan 1198 00:55:41,700 --> 00:55:38,950 was you know one of the guys behind the 1199 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:41,710 the near coup d'etat that removed 1200 00:55:47,130 --> 00:55:44,650 Roosevelt from office another incident 1201 00:55:50,070 --> 00:55:47,140 in American history that people are you 1202 00:55:52,290 --> 00:55:50,080 know unaware of that Smedley Butler 1203 00:55:54,330 --> 00:55:52,300 wrote you know a very important book 1204 00:55:57,060 --> 00:55:54,340 about it you could go folks you can go 1205 00:56:01,980 --> 00:55:57,070 on YouTube and actually watch the video 1206 00:56:04,830 --> 00:56:01,990 of Smedley who was the most decorated US 1207 00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:04,840 Marine and I think still is in history 1208 00:56:10,050 --> 00:56:08,290 who was recruited by these folks to say 1209 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:10,060 hey you know wouldn't it be better if we 1210 00:56:14,580 --> 00:56:12,490 kind of got frozen eft out of there and 1211 00:56:17,850 --> 00:56:14,590 put someone else in there which in some 1212 00:56:20,910 --> 00:56:17,860 ways is a precursor to the JFK thing 1213 00:56:23,010 --> 00:56:20,920 where Dulles is just smack dab in the 1214 00:56:25,260 --> 00:56:23,020 middle of that because as you alluded to 1215 00:56:28,980 --> 00:56:25,270 JFK's gonna smash the CIA into a 1216 00:56:30,750 --> 00:56:28,990 thousand pieces and there's always this 1217 00:56:32,610 --> 00:56:30,760 history when people don't know this is I 1218 00:56:34,530 --> 00:56:32,620 just have to chuckle it's like you know 1219 00:56:37,370 --> 00:56:34,540 what I can't go back and fill in all the 1220 00:56:40,170 --> 00:56:37,380 gaps for you but go for yourself who is 1221 00:56:42,180 --> 00:56:40,180 responsible for kind of coordinating 1222 00:56:47,810 --> 00:56:42,190 running the Warren Commission overseeing 1223 00:56:50,100 --> 00:56:47,820 it hates him but forget all that 1224 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:50,110 continue on with the story about Watson 1225 00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:52,810 because now back to the thing you got 1226 00:56:55,890 --> 00:56:54,160 the haircut you drive up there with the 1227 00:56:57,720 --> 00:56:55,900 Lincoln here no now you're you're you 1228 00:57:00,000 --> 00:56:57,730 they're bringing you trays you're the 1229 00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:00,010 the key guy you're the point guy you're 1230 00:57:04,710 --> 00:57:01,770 the most beautiful person who's going to 1231 00:57:06,180 --> 00:57:04,720 glorify our great Gordon wasit and 1232 00:57:08,670 --> 00:57:06,190 suddenly you're starting to get that 1233 00:57:10,650 --> 00:57:08,680 sinking feeling in your stomach as you 1234 00:57:12,180 --> 00:57:10,660 realize there's another part 1235 00:57:16,110 --> 00:57:12,190 the story that you're not so comfortable 1236 00:57:18,750 --> 00:57:16,120 with exactly yeah no also we have to you 1237 00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:18,760 know kind of insert here that this is 1238 00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:22,510 this is post 9/11 this is post 9/11 for 1239 00:57:28,470 --> 00:57:25,210 you this is yeah when I when I was in 1240 00:57:31,710 --> 00:57:28,480 the Waffen archives this was I mean I 1241 00:57:37,590 --> 00:57:31,720 was I was in New York City on 9/11 that 1242 00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:37,600 was a big day and then you know it was 1243 00:57:43,590 --> 00:57:41,170 in the winter of 2002 February I think 1244 00:57:46,110 --> 00:57:43,600 it was when I was I spent that month in 1245 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:46,120 the Wasson archives and I find out his 1246 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:48,370 relationship with Dulles and Kenan and 1247 00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:50,890 all these guys and realized huh this is 1248 00:57:56,100 --> 00:57:53,410 this is a really important piece of 1249 00:57:58,260 --> 00:57:56,110 information here wasn't really sure you 1250 00:58:01,980 --> 00:57:58,270 know what I was going to do with it here 1251 00:58:04,950 --> 00:58:01,990 I was just kind of chewing on it for a 1252 00:58:08,250 --> 00:58:04,960 while and then and then another big 1253 00:58:13,700 --> 00:58:08,260 chunk comes to me you know we mentioned 1254 00:58:18,650 --> 00:58:13,710 this this researcher is a very tenacious 1255 00:58:21,750 --> 00:58:18,660 and angry young man Yan Irvin who 1256 00:58:24,930 --> 00:58:21,760 started calling me with this information 1257 00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:24,940 about Wasson and CIA and a very angry 1258 00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:27,130 guy about all the whole psychedelic 1259 00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:29,650 movement is a CIA conspiracy like 1260 00:58:33,510 --> 00:58:31,930 talking very fast and very angry and at 1261 00:58:35,220 --> 00:58:33,520 first I just said they're like you know 1262 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:35,230 I put him off like I just wasn't 1263 00:58:41,340 --> 00:58:37,170 interested and just his tone was 1264 00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:41,350 belligerent and you know and but he was 1265 00:58:45,870 --> 00:58:44,050 you know he kept calling so you know 1266 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:45,880 finally he asked me if I would read his 1267 00:58:49,860 --> 00:58:47,770 book and he had written a book about 1268 00:58:53,130 --> 00:58:49,870 Wasson and John Allegro 1269 00:58:56,370 --> 00:58:53,140 and I found the book excellent and so I 1270 00:59:00,060 --> 00:58:56,380 started to develop a rapport with yan 1271 00:59:03,300 --> 00:59:00,070 and then he then he finally he sends me 1272 00:59:07,890 --> 00:59:03,310 some documents and these documents are 1273 00:59:12,270 --> 00:59:07,900 the pay requisitions for MKULTRA sub 1274 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:12,280 project number 58 which is the Waffen 1275 00:59:21,750 --> 00:59:16,690 expedition to Mexico and it lays it out 1276 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:21,760 that the official story that Wasson had 1277 00:59:26,850 --> 00:59:24,610 repeated his late is 1985 1278 00:59:29,310 --> 00:59:26,860 when I interviewed him which is 1279 00:59:32,430 --> 00:59:29,320 available in my first book a piece that 1280 00:59:34,650 --> 00:59:32,440 I'm still very proud of it thorough at 1281 00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:34,660 that point interview of his life and I 1282 00:59:40,410 --> 00:59:37,150 asked him about the CIA and he basically 1283 00:59:42,780 --> 00:59:40,420 lied to me he said you repeated this 1284 00:59:46,950 --> 00:59:42,790 official story that the CIA had kind of 1285 00:59:49,170 --> 00:59:46,960 secretly infiltrated his expedition and 1286 00:59:52,470 --> 00:59:49,180 then he didn't really want to work with 1287 00:59:53,940 --> 00:59:52,480 the CIA and that they snuck in and that 1288 00:59:55,500 --> 00:59:53,950 they were going to try to control the 1289 00:59:57,570 --> 00:59:55,510 whole thing and use it for their 1290 01:00:02,370 --> 00:59:57,580 purposes but there we got these pay 1291 01:00:05,370 --> 01:00:02,380 requisitions that a very good researcher 1292 01:00:09,300 --> 01:00:05,380 Colin Ross had unearthed that shows that 1293 01:00:12,210 --> 01:00:09,310 the that this Life magazine story was 1294 01:00:14,970 --> 01:00:12,220 not just a hobby of a banker telling the 1295 01:00:17,130 --> 01:00:14,980 story about a discovery he made but this 1296 01:00:20,580 --> 01:00:17,140 was a CIA operation 1297 01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:20,590 the CIA paid for the trip you know and 1298 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:22,330 then just pay for the trip they paid for 1299 01:00:28,470 --> 01:00:25,570 all the expenses for the photographic 1300 01:00:31,980 --> 01:00:28,480 equipment the recordings the audio 1301 01:00:34,740 --> 01:00:31,990 recordings and the publication of it in 1302 01:00:38,930 --> 01:00:34,750 Henry Lucis life and reboost Skull and 1303 01:00:42,330 --> 01:00:38,940 Bones the CIA very deliberately secretly 1304 01:00:44,910 --> 01:00:42,340 systematically exposes this the CIA 1305 01:00:47,580 --> 01:00:44,920 wanted millions of Americans to know 1306 01:00:50,490 --> 01:00:47,590 about this mushroom that caused these 1307 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:50,500 visions that's a game changer for me and 1308 01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:52,930 why they were keeping the secret and 1309 01:00:58,290 --> 01:00:55,510 what this is the question that those of 1310 01:00:59,640 --> 01:00:58,300 us that are fascinated by these drugs we 1311 01:01:02,960 --> 01:00:59,650 this is what we should be asking 1312 01:01:07,110 --> 01:01:02,970 ourselves why does the CIA want to 1313 01:01:09,330 --> 01:01:07,120 ignite this psychedelic movement 1314 01:01:11,130 --> 01:01:09,340 Robert full stop there it's a really 1315 01:01:12,510 --> 01:01:11,140 super important point and it's something 1316 01:01:14,340 --> 01:01:12,520 we've explored on the show and I don't 1317 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:14,350 know if you had a chance to listen to 1318 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:16,690 the interview I had with Joe Atwell who 1319 01:01:25,230 --> 01:01:21,010 I think did a lot of that research with 1320 01:01:27,570 --> 01:01:25,240 Yan Yan Ervin deserves credit where 1321 01:01:29,370 --> 01:01:27,580 credit is due but he's also a nitwit 1322 01:01:31,980 --> 01:01:29,380 when it comes to consciousness and it 1323 01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:31,990 kind of totally shades I think his whole 1324 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:33,970 thing because it's back to this if you 1325 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:36,370 don't understand that there is a 1326 01:01:39,510 --> 01:01:38,050 spiritual dimension to 1327 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:39,520 this and if you don't want to go 1328 01:01:44,490 --> 01:01:42,490 spiritual at least go to the as far as 1329 01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:44,500 saying there's an extended consciousness 1330 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:46,960 reality so you know again jumping all 1331 01:01:52,140 --> 01:01:49,410 over the place when Rick Strassman is 1332 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:52,150 actually a sanctioned academic 1333 01:01:57,540 --> 01:01:55,930 researcher and he gives people DMT under 1334 01:01:59,520 --> 01:01:57,550 controlled situations they're entering 1335 01:02:01,950 --> 01:01:59,530 into the extended realm and they're 1336 01:02:04,230 --> 01:02:01,960 seeing et and they're seeing the purple 1337 01:02:06,180 --> 01:02:04,240 dragon that the shaman are seeing in 1338 01:02:10,890 --> 01:02:06,190 South America and now all bets are off 1339 01:02:11,970 --> 01:02:10,900 so no matter what the CIA or you know 1340 01:02:13,740 --> 01:02:11,980 Allen Dulles 1341 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:13,750 thought they were doing the best 1342 01:02:17,550 --> 01:02:16,570 evidence I think we have is that they 1343 01:02:19,890 --> 01:02:17,560 didn't know what the they were 1344 01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:19,900 doing either you know they went into it 1345 01:02:25,140 --> 01:02:22,200 at kind of with this mechanistic 1346 01:02:29,550 --> 01:02:25,150 materialistic idea of how consciousness 1347 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:29,560 works and they were not aware of the 1348 01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:32,290 deeper truth so and I mentioned Joe at 1349 01:02:37,350 --> 01:02:34,540 well cuz I think Joe at will does a nice 1350 01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:37,360 job of he has a hard time getting off of 1351 01:02:42,150 --> 01:02:40,090 the social engineering thing because 1352 01:02:43,650 --> 01:02:42,160 when you really look at the extent to 1353 01:02:47,550 --> 01:02:43,660 which that social engineering project 1354 01:02:50,940 --> 01:02:47,560 has been forced upon us and and were 1355 01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:50,950 like rats in a maze it's it's it's very 1356 01:02:55,620 --> 01:02:52,690 oppressive you know and you want to 1357 01:02:57,570 --> 01:02:55,630 throw it off but I love where you sit in 1358 01:03:00,930 --> 01:02:57,580 this and that's where I think is really 1359 01:03:03,180 --> 01:03:00,940 I really want to understand how you're 1360 01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:03,190 juggling these two things because what I 1361 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:06,610 hear from Wasson is this both Anne kind 1362 01:03:14,100 --> 01:03:09,610 of thing yeah he's a lyin ass CIA 1363 01:03:16,790 --> 01:03:14,110 lifetime player yes but I also get the 1364 01:03:19,980 --> 01:03:16,800 sense that he's someone who either 1365 01:03:22,170 --> 01:03:19,990 before during or after is woken up to 1366 01:03:25,050 --> 01:03:22,180 the larger reality that he's kind of 1367 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:25,060 been that he stumbled into or that he's 1368 01:03:29,970 --> 01:03:27,610 been pushed into or however you know I 1369 01:03:32,220 --> 01:03:29,980 mean those are the two aspects how are 1370 01:03:34,890 --> 01:03:32,230 you play are you playing with those two 1371 01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:34,900 Robert well you know I'm glad you put it 1372 01:03:39,570 --> 01:03:37,210 that way because I'm still kind of you 1373 01:03:42,980 --> 01:03:39,580 know I think back to my meetings with 1374 01:03:45,390 --> 01:03:42,990 Watson he had a very peculiar 1375 01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:45,400 personality around me I mean I think I 1376 01:03:51,059 --> 01:03:47,440 think there was some genuine affection 1377 01:03:53,489 --> 01:03:51,069 and respect for me as a young man 1378 01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:53,499 and who really wanted to understand what 1379 01:03:59,370 --> 01:03:56,410 was going on you know like he was he was 1380 01:04:02,099 --> 01:03:59,380 withholding like he liked he had a 1381 01:04:05,099 --> 01:04:02,109 secret he didn't really couldn't really 1382 01:04:08,609 --> 01:04:05,109 tell it there was there was an innocence 1383 01:04:11,009 --> 01:04:08,619 about him a gentleness about him he's 1384 01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:11,019 also you know again kind of near the end 1385 01:04:15,420 --> 01:04:13,119 of his life you know I don't really know 1386 01:04:17,729 --> 01:04:15,430 I'd really love to go back into his 1387 01:04:21,839 --> 01:04:17,739 archives and read more of his letters 1388 01:04:26,279 --> 01:04:21,849 but I put il I gave a lecture in New 1389 01:04:28,620 --> 01:04:26,289 York shortly after this my realization 1390 01:04:31,799 --> 01:04:28,630 of his relationship to the American 1391 01:04:35,189 --> 01:04:31,809 fascists and then my my access to the 1392 01:04:37,229 --> 01:04:35,199 archives was denied I can't get back in 1393 01:04:39,420 --> 01:04:37,239 there and I think is very difficult to 1394 01:04:41,670 --> 01:04:39,430 get in there to read his archives and 1395 01:04:43,140 --> 01:04:41,680 these letters to find out but this is a 1396 01:04:45,959 --> 01:04:43,150 really important question that I've 1397 01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:45,969 discussed with colleagues you know like 1398 01:04:50,609 --> 01:04:49,119 maybe Watson like when I asked him in 1399 01:04:52,259 --> 01:04:50,619 the interview which again I would I 1400 01:04:53,910 --> 01:04:52,269 would urge your your readers your 1401 01:04:56,309 --> 01:04:53,920 listeners to check out it's an 1402 01:04:58,769 --> 01:04:56,319 interesting piece it's in my it's in my 1403 01:05:01,979 --> 01:04:58,779 first book entheogens in the future of 1404 01:05:04,559 --> 01:05:01,989 religion there may be a copy online or 1405 01:05:07,259 --> 01:05:04,569 if you want it you can contact me and 1406 01:05:09,749 --> 01:05:07,269 I'll send you a version you know when 1407 01:05:12,329 --> 01:05:09,759 Watson found the mushrooms shortly 1408 01:05:15,359 --> 01:05:12,339 thereafter his wife dies of cancer and 1409 01:05:17,459 --> 01:05:15,369 he retires from banking he gets out of 1410 01:05:19,259 --> 01:05:17,469 Wall Street and so maybe that's an 1411 01:05:21,239 --> 01:05:19,269 indication that he you know did get 1412 01:05:24,599 --> 01:05:21,249 turned on he had a religious awakening 1413 01:05:27,150 --> 01:05:24,609 and maybe he did have a political shift 1414 01:05:29,910 --> 01:05:27,160 I'm trying to give the guy a benefit of 1415 01:05:32,609 --> 01:05:29,920 the doubt because I do I had a sense of 1416 01:05:35,269 --> 01:05:32,619 something human about him and like all 1417 01:05:38,039 --> 01:05:35,279 these guys Tim Jack Tim did some really 1418 01:05:40,799 --> 01:05:38,049 nefarious up but there's a 1419 01:05:43,079 --> 01:05:40,809 human being in there that I'm relating 1420 01:05:46,109 --> 01:05:43,089 to and I'm trying to help move this 1421 01:05:48,239 --> 01:05:46,119 movement along to pieces they're revving 1422 01:05:51,319 --> 01:05:48,249 up MKULTRA again there are millions of 1423 01:05:54,449 --> 01:05:51,329 people that are being seduced by this 1424 01:05:56,489 --> 01:05:54,459 coordinated yada yada yada I'm with you 1425 01:05:59,279 --> 01:05:56,499 on all that but but before we go too far 1426 01:06:01,019 --> 01:05:59,289 down there and I don't want to pull this 1427 01:06:02,910 --> 01:06:01,029 to yank is too hard in another direction 1428 01:06:03,940 --> 01:06:02,920 so you pull it back any any time you 1429 01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:03,950 want 1430 01:06:09,059 --> 01:06:07,609 yeah uh it's curious to me what you say 1431 01:06:12,670 --> 01:06:09,069 I mean if we look at the larger 1432 01:06:14,530 --> 01:06:12,680 spiritual structure of things and how we 1433 01:06:16,329 --> 01:06:14,540 think things might work you know we're 1434 01:06:18,039 --> 01:06:16,339 all these chess pieces that are put on 1435 01:06:19,630 --> 01:06:18,049 the board and we're not sure whether 1436 01:06:21,819 --> 01:06:19,640 we're being moved or whether we're 1437 01:06:24,490 --> 01:06:21,829 moving our own piece you know and you 1438 01:06:26,710 --> 01:06:24,500 talk about Tim Leary and how he was set 1439 01:06:30,069 --> 01:06:26,720 up for this and set up to be the Econo 1440 01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:30,079 class and I look at you Robert and I 1441 01:06:36,309 --> 01:06:33,650 look at who you are at the time that you 1442 01:06:39,819 --> 01:06:36,319 meet Wasson and anyone who wants to go 1443 01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:39,829 and read your extraordinary book in so 1444 01:06:42,910 --> 01:06:42,410 many ways entheogen Zinn the future of 1445 01:06:45,789 --> 01:06:42,920 religion 1446 01:06:49,270 --> 01:06:45,799 I mean you at that point had tapped into 1447 01:06:52,329 --> 01:06:49,280 a beautiful aspect of this that can't be 1448 01:06:55,079 --> 01:06:52,339 denied and that is the the religious 1449 01:06:57,420 --> 01:06:55,089 spiritual experience that people have 1450 01:07:00,809 --> 01:06:57,430 connected to this and the deeper 1451 01:07:03,549 --> 01:07:00,819 spirituality of set and setting of 1452 01:07:05,530 --> 01:07:03,559 transformation not necessary to have 1453 01:07:08,589 --> 01:07:05,540 that spiritual transformation but in 1454 01:07:10,390 --> 01:07:08,599 some cases can be for some people can be 1455 01:07:12,250 --> 01:07:10,400 a catalyst to that and I'm just saying 1456 01:07:14,260 --> 01:07:12,260 this is that person someone who goes and 1457 01:07:16,270 --> 01:07:14,270 reads that book will get a sense of 1458 01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:16,280 where your head's at and you're the 1459 01:07:22,630 --> 01:07:19,130 person who rolls up in the Lincoln and 1460 01:07:25,930 --> 01:07:22,640 talks to to Wasson who represents the 1461 01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:25,940 two sides the the light and the dark it 1462 01:07:31,539 --> 01:07:29,210 just is too poetic to think that yeah 1463 01:07:33,370 --> 01:07:31,549 you're that guy put in and you're still 1464 01:07:35,319 --> 01:07:33,380 are in this history like you say you're 1465 01:07:37,539 --> 01:07:35,329 still trying to figure out how to take 1466 01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:37,549 this movement or how to take just this 1467 01:07:42,490 --> 01:07:40,490 whole history forward I don't know what 1468 01:07:44,530 --> 01:07:42,500 when you thrown a lot of stuff there but 1469 01:07:47,470 --> 01:07:44,540 when you chew a yet what is your role in 1470 01:07:48,849 --> 01:07:47,480 all this yeah well I don't I don't 1471 01:07:50,650 --> 01:07:48,859 really know how it's but I'm gonna I'd 1472 01:07:52,380 --> 01:07:50,660 like you to write my biography that's 1473 01:07:56,020 --> 01:07:52,390 what that's one thing I'm sure of 1474 01:07:57,700 --> 01:07:56,030 no I know but I've been I've been going 1475 01:07:59,740 --> 01:07:57,710 you know I just turned you know my 1476 01:08:01,930 --> 01:07:59,750 astrologer friends you know point out 1477 01:08:04,089 --> 01:08:01,940 that I've just gone through my second 1478 01:08:06,579 --> 01:08:04,099 Saturn return and it was really like 1479 01:08:09,670 --> 01:08:06,589 around my first Saturn return that I 1480 01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:09,680 began to really explore this stuff very 1481 01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:11,450 deeply and now I do feel like it's a 1482 01:08:17,410 --> 01:08:14,000 kind of obligation of mine to just write 1483 01:08:19,599 --> 01:08:17,420 my memoirs in fact I just 1484 01:08:21,070 --> 01:08:19,609 just get a contract with a German 1485 01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:21,080 publisher for a book that's going to 1486 01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:23,810 come out next year what I'm going to try 1487 01:08:28,090 --> 01:08:26,210 to tell some of these stories there's a 1488 01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:28,100 lot of aspects here because we have the 1489 01:08:32,919 --> 01:08:30,290 we have the full spectrum of human 1490 01:08:33,729 --> 01:08:32,929 experience as you've noted that the very 1491 01:08:36,450 --> 01:08:33,739 powerful 1492 01:08:39,490 --> 01:08:36,460 you know mystical importance of these 1493 01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:39,500 revelatory experiences but they're also 1494 01:08:45,610 --> 01:08:42,650 the Cecotto mimetic and mind-control 1495 01:08:48,249 --> 01:08:45,620 aspects of these experiences that are 1496 01:08:50,229 --> 01:08:48,259 and so in this sense like the field of 1497 01:08:52,329 --> 01:08:50,239 psychedelic drugs is really like a 1498 01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:52,339 microcosm of the whole history of 1499 01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:54,650 religion because it's not because it's 1500 01:08:57,999 --> 01:08:56,330 the same thing I mean look look at this 1501 01:09:01,329 --> 01:08:58,009 de Rivoli look at like the history of 1502 01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:01,339 Christianity I happen to accept Joe at 1503 01:09:06,309 --> 01:09:03,410 wills thesis that it was a mind-control 1504 01:09:10,300 --> 01:09:06,319 operation from the beginning that Jesus 1505 01:09:12,010 --> 01:09:10,310 was a literary invention but I'm totally 1506 01:09:13,599 --> 01:09:12,020 with you I can't resist throwing in 1507 01:09:16,390 --> 01:09:13,609 there because that throws people for a 1508 01:09:19,419 --> 01:09:16,400 total loop hey even if you don't do a 1509 01:09:23,110 --> 01:09:19,429 full at will on that I just encourage 1510 01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:23,120 anyone to one look at Josephus which is 1511 01:09:28,510 --> 01:09:25,370 I think a huge contribution that oil 1512 01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:28,520 makes and look at that biography and say 1513 01:09:35,079 --> 01:09:31,730 does that really make sense if you were 1514 01:09:37,689 --> 01:09:35,089 truly weren't looking at it from a 1515 01:09:40,900 --> 01:09:37,699 Christian perspective would you really 1516 01:09:42,820 --> 01:09:40,910 buy that story of who Josephus is and 1517 01:09:45,220 --> 01:09:42,830 then look at the fact that the Bible is 1518 01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:45,230 pro-roman how does the Bible wind up 1519 01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:47,810 being pro Holman unless there's a Roman 1520 01:09:51,999 --> 01:09:49,310 influence and then the other great 1521 01:09:53,979 --> 01:09:52,009 contribution Atwell makes is if you 1522 01:09:56,350 --> 01:09:53,989 can't swallow all that it and that 1523 01:09:59,590 --> 01:09:56,360 doesn't even touch the historical Jesus 1524 01:10:03,280 --> 01:09:59,600 thing per se it just it just says that 1525 01:10:05,020 --> 01:10:03,290 what that event turns out to be as it's 1526 01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:05,030 passed on to us through the Bible is 1527 01:10:11,110 --> 01:10:08,960 purely a PSYOP is purely a control 1528 01:10:13,060 --> 01:10:11,120 mechanism and then the I love how he 1529 01:10:14,530 --> 01:10:13,070 just flashes forward to Constantine 1530 01:10:18,430 --> 01:10:14,540 Saint Constantine 1531 01:10:20,740 --> 01:10:18,440 who turns the entire population into 1532 01:10:23,410 --> 01:10:20,750 slaves and he calls it serfdom and he 1533 01:10:25,500 --> 01:10:23,420 says don't worry though I'm giving you 1534 01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:25,510 this religion and it's called 1535 01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:27,410 Christianity and I just can't resist 1536 01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:28,850 writing the one other thing I always 1537 01:10:33,430 --> 01:10:31,130 throw in there because it relates to 1538 01:10:37,870 --> 01:10:33,440 correctly to your point if this happens 1539 01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:37,880 at 400 AD if they are that sophisticated 1540 01:10:44,470 --> 01:10:40,370 at playing the game where are they at 1541 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:44,480 today no IP far more sophisticated far 1542 01:10:50,490 --> 01:10:46,570 more sophisticated with a lot more 1543 01:10:53,410 --> 01:10:50,500 powerful technologies to inculcate these 1544 01:10:54,729 --> 01:10:53,420 mind controlled principles we have the 1545 01:10:58,149 --> 01:10:54,739 internet we have television we have 1546 01:11:00,669 --> 01:10:58,159 movie screens we have these powerful 1547 01:11:02,740 --> 01:11:00,679 drugs and they're just much more 1548 01:11:06,700 --> 01:11:02,750 advanced but that also means that that 1549 01:11:09,220 --> 01:11:06,710 the potential to turn this thing against 1550 01:11:12,459 --> 01:11:09,230 them and to end to actually turn it into 1551 01:11:14,830 --> 01:11:12,469 a kind of liberation movement is also 1552 01:11:16,540 --> 01:11:14,840 that much more exciting it seems to me 1553 01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:16,550 that I don't you know sometimes with 1554 01:11:20,050 --> 01:11:18,290 people we talk about these kind of 1555 01:11:22,510 --> 01:11:20,060 conspiracy theories and people think 1556 01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:22,520 it's all doom and gloom and paranoid 1557 01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:25,690 stuff no it's a it's a really fantastic 1558 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:29,570 opportunity to learn from these mistakes 1559 01:11:34,990 --> 01:11:32,690 and to and to use this power in a way 1560 01:11:37,930 --> 01:11:35,000 that really does empower individuals and 1561 01:11:40,570 --> 01:11:37,940 help us bring about a more sustainable 1562 01:11:42,310 --> 01:11:40,580 society you know I still have that that 1563 01:11:45,310 --> 01:11:42,320 wish absolutely 1564 01:11:47,890 --> 01:11:45,320 hey Robert can I pull you you've been so 1565 01:11:51,220 --> 01:11:47,900 fantastic again I only hope people can 1566 01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:51,230 follow you don't follow whatever trail 1567 01:11:54,820 --> 01:11:53,090 you can out of this but I'm gonna throw 1568 01:11:57,370 --> 01:11:54,830 one other thing on the table because I 1569 01:11:59,379 --> 01:11:57,380 feel a spiritual connection with neem 1570 01:12:01,750 --> 01:11:59,389 Karoli Baba and I don't know why I don't 1571 01:12:02,290 --> 01:12:01,760 know how but I found myself in tears on 1572 01:12:05,729 --> 01:12:02,300 an airplane 1573 01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:05,739 reading hit the accounts of his life as 1574 01:12:13,290 --> 01:12:10,130 recorded by Ram Dass so Ram Dass Richard 1575 01:12:15,790 --> 01:12:13,300 Albert is Alpert is an interesting 1576 01:12:18,310 --> 01:12:15,800 interesting figure in this whole thing 1577 01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:18,320 and I was wondering because he appears 1578 01:12:21,780 --> 01:12:20,090 there's an interview with him that 1579 01:12:25,330 --> 01:12:21,790 appears in your book with Timothy Leary 1580 01:12:28,229 --> 01:12:25,340 that's that's that's another turn on 1581 01:12:33,340 --> 01:12:28,239 this and I think it provides some 1582 01:12:36,820 --> 01:12:33,350 first-hand accounts of an alternative 1583 01:12:38,830 --> 01:12:36,830 way of looking at this expanded 1584 01:12:41,830 --> 01:12:38,840 consciousness and the role that drugs 1585 01:12:44,650 --> 01:12:41,840 might play in it so it just start 1586 01:12:47,260 --> 01:12:44,660 wherever you want with Rahm das 1587 01:12:48,850 --> 01:12:47,270 and then allow me to kind of jump in but 1588 01:12:50,830 --> 01:12:48,860 we got to get to the story where you 1589 01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:50,840 know Ram Dass and let's tell the truth 1590 01:12:55,870 --> 01:12:52,850 you know Ram Dass has outed himself as 1591 01:12:58,600 --> 01:12:55,880 being a little bit pretty wild and crazy 1592 01:13:02,020 --> 01:12:58,610 because he's a closeted homosexual man 1593 01:13:06,340 --> 01:13:02,030 and trying to lead this life and it 1594 01:13:08,740 --> 01:13:06,350 leads to all sorts of psychosis that you 1595 01:13:10,540 --> 01:13:08,750 know was is too bad that a lot of people 1596 01:13:12,190 --> 01:13:10,550 in that situation had to go through and 1597 01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:12,200 who knows what else is going on in his 1598 01:13:16,690 --> 01:13:14,330 life but he's kind of a lost soul and he 1599 01:13:18,550 --> 01:13:16,700 gets this LSD but he packs it up and 1600 01:13:20,230 --> 01:13:18,560 goes to India and he meets neem karoli 1601 01:13:22,270 --> 01:13:20,240 baba and I do want to get to the point 1602 01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:22,280 where he gives a whole handful that 1603 01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:24,290 stuffed Indian karoli baba and he places 1604 01:13:27,970 --> 01:13:25,730 it on his tongue it says there it 1605 01:13:31,570 --> 01:13:27,980 doesn't do anything to me because I've 1606 01:13:33,310 --> 01:13:31,580 already been there I can do that with my 1607 01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:33,320 consciousness because that's where our 1608 01:13:38,230 --> 01:13:35,570 consciousness can take us but if you 1609 01:13:41,740 --> 01:13:38,240 want to go there with your medicine okay 1610 01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:41,750 but you know he raises another question 1611 01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:45,890 in terms of this whole thing in terms of 1612 01:13:49,330 --> 01:13:47,570 where we're really trying to go with 1613 01:13:50,770 --> 01:13:49,340 this stuff so there I've laid more on 1614 01:13:53,770 --> 01:13:50,780 the table than maybe I should have but 1615 01:13:56,170 --> 01:13:53,780 any thoughts on Ram Dass well okay so 1616 01:13:59,920 --> 01:13:56,180 that's another fairly complicated part 1617 01:14:04,720 --> 01:13:59,930 of the story I didn't get to know 1618 01:14:08,980 --> 01:14:04,730 Richard or Rahm Das and until the 1990s 1619 01:14:13,750 --> 01:14:08,990 or so and you just he's one of the most 1620 01:14:16,660 --> 01:14:13,760 likable and funny and you know delicious 1621 01:14:19,030 --> 01:14:16,670 people to be around and I got to spend 1622 01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:19,040 you know not a lot of time with them but 1623 01:14:25,980 --> 01:14:22,730 we had some very close mutual friends in 1624 01:14:28,330 --> 01:14:25,990 particular women named Nina grab a and 1625 01:14:32,020 --> 01:14:28,340 you know I had some you know some 1626 01:14:34,030 --> 01:14:32,030 connection with Richard I also but you 1627 01:14:37,690 --> 01:14:34,040 know I first got to know him kind of 1628 01:14:40,810 --> 01:14:37,700 through the eyes of Frank baron and see 1629 01:14:42,820 --> 01:14:40,820 what I want to say here because I have a 1630 01:14:45,130 --> 01:14:42,830 lot of respect for him and I really like 1631 01:14:46,930 --> 01:14:45,140 him and I tried to talk with him about 1632 01:14:49,180 --> 01:14:46,940 some of these things that interview that 1633 01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:49,190 is that long interview that's in my 1634 01:14:53,860 --> 01:14:52,130 Leary book is really a much shorter 1635 01:14:57,970 --> 01:14:53,870 version of a much longer conversation 1636 01:14:58,700 --> 01:14:57,980 that I haven't published because I like 1637 01:15:02,000 --> 01:14:58,710 that same 1638 01:15:04,910 --> 01:15:02,010 incident well here's how I look at it 1639 01:15:07,850 --> 01:15:04,920 okay so here's Richard Alpert he didn't 1640 01:15:10,820 --> 01:15:07,860 start the Harvard psilocybin project 1641 01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:10,830 with Tim he Frank Barron started the 1642 01:15:15,709 --> 01:15:13,530 project with Tim and Frank left because 1643 01:15:17,090 --> 01:15:15,719 it got too outrageous an embarrassing 1644 01:15:19,430 --> 01:15:17,100 thing happened Frank went back to 1645 01:15:22,430 --> 01:15:19,440 Berkeley Tim wanted someone else to work 1646 01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:22,440 with so he kind of latched on to Alpert 1647 01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:25,050 not for any great reasons and he was 1648 01:15:28,220 --> 01:15:27,330 like some you know spiritual person or 1649 01:15:30,380 --> 01:15:28,230 something that's because he had an 1650 01:15:32,930 --> 01:15:30,390 airplane and he had a Mercedes and he 1651 01:15:34,790 --> 01:15:32,940 had some Harvard you know there's a 1652 01:15:38,390 --> 01:15:34,800 Harvard professor he was a tenured track 1653 01:15:42,590 --> 01:15:38,400 guy and in and he had a big crush on Tim 1654 01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:42,600 so he was you know and and Richard will 1655 01:15:45,950 --> 01:15:44,130 say this in the interview you know I'll 1656 01:15:47,780 --> 01:15:45,960 talk about he said you know when you 1657 01:15:50,900 --> 01:15:47,790 talk about Tim and I at Harvard I was 1658 01:15:53,090 --> 01:15:50,910 really a very minor character at Harvard 1659 01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:53,100 he just kind of followed him around and 1660 01:15:57,590 --> 01:15:55,650 and did what he said basically he washed 1661 01:16:00,229 --> 01:15:57,600 the dishes he flew him around in his 1662 01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:00,239 plane you just listened he was he was 1663 01:16:05,420 --> 01:16:03,210 just so excited and happy to be there 1664 01:16:09,620 --> 01:16:05,430 but he didn't really have much input and 1665 01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:09,630 then he gets it's really Richard that 1666 01:16:15,530 --> 01:16:12,810 got fired from Harvard you know for some 1667 01:16:18,229 --> 01:16:15,540 really embarrassing stuff you know they 1668 01:16:21,740 --> 01:16:18,239 had it they had agreements not to use 1669 01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:21,750 the drugs with undergraduates and it was 1670 01:16:27,229 --> 01:16:24,570 the terms of the of the grant and the 1671 01:16:28,970 --> 01:16:27,239 permissions and Richard violated all 1672 01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:28,980 those agreements you know he was using 1673 01:16:34,900 --> 01:16:31,770 drugs with undergraduates he was having 1674 01:16:37,670 --> 01:16:34,910 sexual relationships with undergraduates 1675 01:16:41,270 --> 01:16:37,680 that's really embarrassing it's illegal 1676 01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:41,280 it's unethical it's a it's a shameful 1677 01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:42,810 thing to do I mean I've been a I've been 1678 01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:44,489 a university professor you know it's 1679 01:16:48,410 --> 01:16:46,530 it's against the laws it's improper II 1680 01:16:50,420 --> 01:16:48,420 just don't do that kind of everybody 1681 01:16:52,910 --> 01:16:50,430 knew about it too right I mean he was 1682 01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:52,920 really yeah so he gets so here's a guy 1683 01:16:58,580 --> 01:16:55,650 he gets fired from Harvard for this 1684 01:17:01,040 --> 01:16:58,590 terrible stuff then they go to the you 1685 01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:01,050 know the Millbrook estate and he gets he 1686 01:17:04,780 --> 01:17:02,370 kind of gets them kicked out of 1687 01:17:07,900 --> 01:17:04,790 Millbrook too because he's just too 1688 01:17:11,919 --> 01:17:07,910 outrageous with his with his you know 1689 01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:11,929 sexual you know blah blah blah 1690 01:17:16,779 --> 01:17:14,090 and then and then so he's gotta in a 1691 01:17:19,839 --> 01:17:16,789 little impasse in his life he goes to 1692 01:17:21,310 --> 01:17:19,849 India because Allen Ginsberg went to 1693 01:17:24,429 --> 01:17:21,320 India you know again he didn't really 1694 01:17:25,839 --> 01:17:24,439 have any great like spiritual curiosity 1695 01:17:28,929 --> 01:17:25,849 or something he just kind of went to 1696 01:17:32,410 --> 01:17:28,939 India so in India he falls in love with 1697 01:17:36,279 --> 01:17:32,420 somebody this big you know surfer guy 1698 01:17:39,009 --> 01:17:36,289 Michael Riggs name is Bhagwan das who's 1699 01:17:40,750 --> 01:17:39,019 actually a person who's you know I've 1700 01:17:43,620 --> 01:17:40,760 sat down had long conversation with 1701 01:17:47,739 --> 01:17:43,630 about this Michael takes him to meet 1702 01:17:50,709 --> 01:17:47,749 neem Karoli now I know you did you had 1703 01:17:53,199 --> 01:17:50,719 this love for neem Karoli but you know 1704 01:17:54,939 --> 01:17:53,209 I'm really suspicious to these guru guys 1705 01:17:56,350 --> 01:17:54,949 and I've done a little research and 1706 01:17:58,000 --> 01:17:56,360 talked to other people that have been 1707 01:18:00,339 --> 01:17:58,010 there you know this gets controversial 1708 01:18:03,899 --> 01:18:00,349 and people call me names but you know 1709 01:18:06,189 --> 01:18:03,909 neem Karoli was that like kind of a I 1710 01:18:08,850 --> 01:18:06,199 wonder and this is what Michael kind of 1711 01:18:13,660 --> 01:18:08,860 in Part II it was kind of a trickster 1712 01:18:17,049 --> 01:18:13,670 charlatan sort of guy - and this this 1713 01:18:20,169 --> 01:18:17,059 famous story about Ram Dass giving him 1714 01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:20,179 the LSD and him taking anything and 1715 01:18:23,500 --> 01:18:21,170 didn't really do anything 1716 01:18:25,509 --> 01:18:23,510 that's according to Michael and two 1717 01:18:28,270 --> 01:18:25,519 other people that were there that's not 1718 01:18:30,310 --> 01:18:28,280 really what happened but that Nina 1719 01:18:33,549 --> 01:18:30,320 cruelly played tricks on people like he 1720 01:18:36,790 --> 01:18:33,559 had he had some of his guys sneaked into 1721 01:18:39,669 --> 01:18:36,800 rhombuses room when he wasn't around and 1722 01:18:41,469 --> 01:18:39,679 go through his personal stuff and he 1723 01:18:44,319 --> 01:18:41,479 wouldn't find out personal things about 1724 01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:44,329 Rama das and then trick him into 1725 01:18:49,799 --> 01:18:47,090 thinking he was being psychic about him 1726 01:18:55,390 --> 01:18:49,809 and that he didn't actually take the LSD 1727 01:18:57,339 --> 01:18:55,400 he palmed it and he gave it to his he 1728 01:19:01,569 --> 01:18:57,349 ground it up and put it in the Prasad 1729 01:19:04,629 --> 01:19:01,579 the holy food so his so his devotees 1730 01:19:06,759 --> 01:19:04,639 would take it and have altered states of 1731 01:19:09,790 --> 01:19:06,769 consciousness and and think that the 1732 01:19:12,729 --> 01:19:09,800 Guru was really so incredibly powerful 1733 01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:12,739 and so so now you've got this guy 1734 01:19:16,839 --> 01:19:14,449 Richard Alpert who's fired from Harvard 1735 01:19:20,140 --> 01:19:16,849 then he falls for this phony guru 1736 01:19:24,549 --> 01:19:20,150 betting puts together this book be here 1737 01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:24,559 now which is you know okay I know a lot 1738 01:19:29,180 --> 01:19:25,890 of people that was there first 1739 01:19:31,550 --> 01:19:29,190 introduction to kind of Buddhist or go 1740 01:19:34,700 --> 01:19:31,560 get ideals and be here now but look I'm 1741 01:19:37,790 --> 01:19:34,710 sorry if this sounds harsh or something 1742 01:19:40,700 --> 01:19:37,800 but it's a it's a it's a little cut up 1743 01:19:42,500 --> 01:19:40,710 thing of spiritual platitudes and a guy 1744 01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:42,510 that's really never done any kind of 1745 01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:45,810 real meditation he's a bhakti yogi he 1746 01:19:50,570 --> 01:19:47,370 went from he went from being an 1747 01:19:54,260 --> 01:19:50,580 authoritarian agreeing and obeying with 1748 01:19:56,780 --> 01:19:54,270 all the Harvard authorities to being in 1749 01:19:59,060 --> 01:19:56,790 a you know kind of just accept then Tim 1750 01:20:01,760 --> 01:19:59,070 was his authority and now this neem 1751 01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:01,770 Karoli guy has the authority and then he 1752 01:20:08,330 --> 01:20:04,050 comes back to the United States he falls 1753 01:20:10,730 --> 01:20:08,340 for some woman guru joyeux or something 1754 01:20:13,340 --> 01:20:10,740 bleeds from her ears who he's a kind of 1755 01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:13,350 embarrassing thing and I somehow with 1756 01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:15,650 all decked a series of embarrassing 1757 01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:20,690 stuff gets himself defined as a 1758 01:20:25,070 --> 01:20:23,730 spiritual teacher I'm like what's 1759 01:20:27,290 --> 01:20:25,080 spiritual like what's what does that 1760 01:20:30,110 --> 01:20:27,300 mean really you know a best-selling book 1761 01:20:33,410 --> 01:20:30,120 of platitudes and this series of 1762 01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:33,420 embarrassing stuff and he's a very very 1763 01:20:38,450 --> 01:20:35,730 ticket and funny and charming guy and 1764 01:20:41,030 --> 01:20:38,460 you know we've even sort of talked about 1765 01:20:43,190 --> 01:20:41,040 this I asked him about I told him 1766 01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:43,200 Michaels version of the story that he 1767 01:20:49,850 --> 01:20:46,530 faked Michael told that to me and that 1768 01:20:51,590 --> 01:20:49,860 it was uh you know then Ram Dass said 1769 01:20:53,330 --> 01:20:51,600 this is before his stroke that he said 1770 01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:53,340 well you know I don't know that's that's 1771 01:20:59,540 --> 01:20:56,370 ba Gavin's version this is mine I'm just 1772 01:21:01,760 --> 01:20:59,550 trying to tell the truth as I see it let 1773 01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:01,770 me add a couple parts to the story as I 1774 01:21:08,390 --> 01:21:05,130 know it and I'm not married to the story 1775 01:21:12,350 --> 01:21:08,400 I'm not married to any version of it and 1776 01:21:14,150 --> 01:21:12,360 I've never met neem Karoli Baba so it's 1777 01:21:16,490 --> 01:21:14,160 like people that talk about their person 1778 01:21:18,470 --> 01:21:16,500 or relationship with Jesus and from 1779 01:21:20,270 --> 01:21:18,480 Christ consciousness standpoint and I 1780 01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:20,280 can't get in the middle of that if you 1781 01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:22,890 have a relationship with Jesus and 1782 01:21:29,090 --> 01:21:25,890 hey go for it that's awesome I get well 1783 01:21:31,580 --> 01:21:29,100 I don't know I think that's undeniable 1784 01:21:32,780 --> 01:21:31,590 and I I mean I to get me sidetracked you 1785 01:21:35,780 --> 01:21:32,790 know if you look at the near-death 1786 01:21:37,790 --> 01:21:35,790 experience science right so take it I'd 1787 01:21:39,410 --> 01:21:37,800 like the word science there because if 1788 01:21:39,710 --> 01:21:39,420 we take the neurological model that we 1789 01:21:42,620 --> 01:21:39,720 have 1790 01:21:45,230 --> 01:21:42,630 we say that when your heart stops there 1791 01:21:47,540 --> 01:21:45,240 is no possibility for any coherent brain 1792 01:21:50,090 --> 01:21:47,550 activity within about 15 seconds of of 1793 01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:50,100 after that so whether you believe the 1794 01:21:53,030 --> 01:21:51,570 brain is dead after that point or 1795 01:21:55,490 --> 01:21:53,040 whatever but then if we go in and 1796 01:21:57,260 --> 01:21:55,500 scientifically study the recollections 1797 01:21:59,420 --> 01:21:57,270 and perceptions that people have and we 1798 01:22:01,160 --> 01:21:59,430 tie them back to their ability to 1799 01:22:02,390 --> 01:22:01,170 recount their resuscitation and other 1800 01:22:04,490 --> 01:22:02,400 stuff I'm going through this really 1801 01:22:06,770 --> 01:22:04,500 quickly because people on this show of 1802 01:22:08,380 --> 01:22:06,780 heard it a million times there's a set 1803 01:22:10,970 --> 01:22:08,390 of science there that suggests 1804 01:22:13,820 --> 01:22:10,980 consciousness survives bodily death in a 1805 01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:13,830 way that our modern medicine still can't 1806 01:22:19,610 --> 01:22:15,810 come to grips with and talks about in 1807 01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:19,620 these silly you know neurological 1808 01:22:25,550 --> 01:22:22,410 that's just total thing so I 1809 01:22:27,890 --> 01:22:25,560 digress greatly because I'm backed is 1810 01:22:29,900 --> 01:22:27,900 just saying when those people have a 1811 01:22:33,740 --> 01:22:29,910 near-death experience and they connect 1812 01:22:35,690 --> 01:22:33,750 with Jesus Christ consciousness whatever 1813 01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:35,700 that is and I don't know what that is 1814 01:22:40,730 --> 01:22:38,610 and I don't want to pretend to but that 1815 01:22:42,590 --> 01:22:40,740 there's a reality to this extended 1816 01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:42,600 spiritual experience and I think we're 1817 01:22:48,950 --> 01:22:45,810 both on the same page so I roll that all 1818 01:22:51,470 --> 01:22:48,960 the way back to saying if somebody has a 1819 01:22:54,230 --> 01:22:51,480 connection to neem Karoli Baba I honor 1820 01:22:55,850 --> 01:22:54,240 that without having to pass judgment on 1821 01:22:58,580 --> 01:22:55,860 whether it's true or false or whether 1822 01:23:01,190 --> 01:22:58,590 he's a charlatan or whether he's a Sai 1823 01:23:02,930 --> 01:23:01,200 Baba who we can watch videos of who you 1824 01:23:05,330 --> 01:23:02,940 know so many people just revere and I've 1825 01:23:08,180 --> 01:23:05,340 had some scholars on this show written 1826 01:23:09,980 --> 01:23:08,190 books about the parapsychology and 1827 01:23:12,140 --> 01:23:09,990 they're highly esteemed and they fall 1828 01:23:13,850 --> 01:23:12,150 for Sai Baba and it's like well 1829 01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:13,860 slow down the goddamn video and you can 1830 01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:16,080 see he's palming the the pendant ya know 1831 01:23:22,190 --> 01:23:18,530 what's going on there but the other 1832 01:23:24,020 --> 01:23:22,200 complexity of that is you know people 1833 01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:24,030 talk about regular to and they say the 1834 01:23:26,480 --> 01:23:25,290 same thing well look he's a stage 1835 01:23:28,850 --> 01:23:26,490 magician he's faking 1836 01:23:31,460 --> 01:23:28,860 yes he's faking but he's also really 1837 01:23:32,780 --> 01:23:31,470 done it too and here's my interview with 1838 01:23:34,700 --> 01:23:32,790 Jacque Vallejo where he says I was 1839 01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:34,710 sitting at the table with him and I did 1840 01:23:38,570 --> 01:23:36,210 the mind experiment and he you know what 1841 01:23:40,730 --> 01:23:38,580 I mean so we always are going to have 1842 01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:40,740 that trickster element in this was the 1843 01:23:46,340 --> 01:23:43,290 multi shaded you know that's part of the 1844 01:23:48,170 --> 01:23:46,350 fun of this thing too but back to neem 1845 01:23:52,100 --> 01:23:48,180 Karoli Baba and back to the story as 1846 01:23:53,630 --> 01:23:52,110 I've heard it from Ram Dass is he goes 1847 01:23:55,930 --> 01:23:53,640 and he goes back to the 1848 01:24:00,350 --> 01:23:55,940 United States and he has these doubts 1849 01:24:02,030 --> 01:24:00,360 did this guy really take the LSD was did 1850 01:24:04,730 --> 01:24:02,040 he Palma did he throw it over his 1851 01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:04,740 shoulder so he comes back next time and 1852 01:24:09,710 --> 01:24:06,690 he sees neem karoli baba and before he 1853 01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:09,720 says anything neem karoli baba says to 1854 01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:11,010 him come here 1855 01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:13,730 Danny yeah he says yeah you had doubts 1856 01:24:18,770 --> 01:24:17,130 you think I'm fake he goes he sticks out 1857 01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:18,780 his tongue now this is the story whether 1858 01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:20,130 you believe it or not but there were 1859 01:24:23,990 --> 01:24:22,170 other witnesses to it too right 1860 01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:24,000 so he sticks out his tongue says you 1861 01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:26,250 place them on my tongue you make sure 1862 01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:29,130 now then now give me a glass of water or 1863 01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:31,170 milk or whatever it was and he drinks it 1864 01:24:35,510 --> 01:24:33,570 and he says okay you're satisfied that 1865 01:24:37,610 --> 01:24:35,520 I've taken him he goes now all sit there 1866 01:24:39,860 --> 01:24:37,620 and this is how he tells the story so at 1867 01:24:42,110 --> 01:24:39,870 least he these are an elaborate liar or 1868 01:24:44,660 --> 01:24:42,120 there's some truth to it he said then 1869 01:24:46,460 --> 01:24:44,670 about 20 minutes later neem karoli baba 1870 01:24:48,530 --> 01:24:46,470 starts going into all these like 1871 01:24:51,050 --> 01:24:48,540 convulsions with his face you know and 1872 01:24:53,630 --> 01:24:51,060 they're thinking oh man the old man 1873 01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:53,640 he was faking it and now he's really got 1874 01:24:58,430 --> 01:24:56,250 the dose and he's you know he's tripping 1875 01:25:01,460 --> 01:24:58,440 really hard and then he just smiles and 1876 01:25:02,810 --> 01:25:01,470 he eases oh okay you know that's not it 1877 01:25:04,820 --> 01:25:02,820 you know I'm just playing around with 1878 01:25:06,860 --> 01:25:04,830 you yeah we used to know about this that 1879 01:25:09,290 --> 01:25:06,870 this medicine these people these Yogi's 1880 01:25:11,390 --> 01:25:09,300 back in the valleys know about it blah 1881 01:25:14,630 --> 01:25:11,400 blah blah but again the important thing 1882 01:25:17,060 --> 01:25:14,640 to me is he says which i think is a 1883 01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:17,070 truth that I hold on to because I see it 1884 01:25:22,190 --> 01:25:19,050 in so many different different ways from 1885 01:25:26,420 --> 01:25:22,200 different spiritual masters is that hey 1886 01:25:27,860 --> 01:25:26,430 if you need this medicine to help remind 1887 01:25:30,860 --> 01:25:27,870 you who you are 1888 01:25:34,970 --> 01:25:30,870 to help you remind you of your divinity 1889 01:25:37,990 --> 01:25:34,980 then okay but don't you already know the 1890 01:25:41,690 --> 01:25:38,000 answer isn't the real challenge in 1891 01:25:43,730 --> 01:25:41,700 living it in telling the truth in being 1892 01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:43,740 genuinely who you are in loving other 1893 01:25:48,500 --> 01:25:45,570 people isn't that really the challenge 1894 01:25:51,440 --> 01:25:48,510 the challenge isn't knowing that you're 1895 01:25:53,660 --> 01:25:51,450 more you know you're more so and then I 1896 01:25:55,100 --> 01:25:53,670 also take with that you know all the 1897 01:25:56,930 --> 01:25:55,110 other stories because the first book I 1898 01:25:59,030 --> 01:25:56,940 read from Ram Dass was not be here now 1899 01:26:01,610 --> 01:25:59,040 it was miracle of love and it's all 1900 01:26:05,570 --> 01:26:01,620 these a compilation if you acknowledge 1901 01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:05,580 or believe the story of how these store 1902 01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:07,530 what how this book comes to being 1903 01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:10,290 it's a compilation of stories from all 1904 01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:11,850 these different people that have 1905 01:26:15,860 --> 01:26:14,010 encountered neem karoli baba and some of 1906 01:26:18,380 --> 01:26:15,870 our Indians who've been there for the 1907 01:26:20,420 --> 01:26:18,390 you know known in this twenty thirty 1908 01:26:22,010 --> 01:26:20,430 years other are these Americans that 1909 01:26:23,660 --> 01:26:22,020 have kind of visited him and then also 1910 01:26:25,220 --> 01:26:23,670 you know you can go listen to Krishna 1911 01:26:28,430 --> 01:26:25,230 Das you know Christian dasa is he's 1912 01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:28,440 Faiers right so he has his own 1913 01:26:34,580 --> 01:26:31,050 experience with neem karoli baba but 1914 01:26:36,590 --> 01:26:34,590 many of the details match up with what 1915 01:26:38,030 --> 01:26:36,600 Ram Dass is saying and also you know I 1916 01:26:39,740 --> 01:26:38,040 live right here in Southern California 1917 01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:39,750 like I was telling and I live seven 1918 01:26:44,030 --> 01:26:41,730 miles from the self-realization 1919 01:26:45,470 --> 01:26:44,040 fellowship you know and I had some kind 1920 01:26:48,590 --> 01:26:45,480 of strange connection where I was you 1921 01:26:50,420 --> 01:26:48,600 know I don't know I was a kid starting a 1922 01:26:52,670 --> 01:26:50,430 business entrepreneur and somehow or 1923 01:26:54,740 --> 01:26:52,680 another I get into yoga and I read this 1924 01:26:57,230 --> 01:26:54,750 book autobiography of Yogi and I start 1925 01:26:59,540 --> 01:26:57,240 sending off these correspondence classes 1926 01:27:01,610 --> 01:26:59,550 that are coming from where seven miles 1927 01:27:03,740 --> 01:27:01,620 from where I live right now and although 1928 01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:03,750 I never got into the whole 1929 01:27:06,050 --> 01:27:05,520 self-realization fellowship thing too 1930 01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:06,060 much 1931 01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:08,250 anyone can go take that book and read 1932 01:27:14,480 --> 01:27:11,330 the first 30 pages and it makes all the 1933 01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:14,490 miracles quote-unquote that Ram Dass is 1934 01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:16,890 talking about our child's play and and 1935 01:27:21,740 --> 01:27:19,410 then I just interviewed a guy a couple 1936 01:27:24,890 --> 01:27:21,750 episodes ago named Steve Briggs who 1937 01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:24,900 spent 20 years as a TM meditation 1938 01:27:28,940 --> 01:27:26,730 teacher and was sent to and there's a 1939 01:27:30,770 --> 01:27:28,950 whole story behind that trickster you 1940 01:27:32,330 --> 01:27:30,780 know Maharishi and that whole thing but 1941 01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:32,340 he still has this extraordinary 1942 01:27:39,350 --> 01:27:34,890 experience of going to India for 20 1943 01:27:40,940 --> 01:27:39,360 years and meeting these Indian I'm not 1944 01:27:43,820 --> 01:27:40,950 big on the sage on the stage thing 1945 01:27:48,770 --> 01:27:43,830 either but there's just too much there 1946 01:27:51,320 --> 01:27:48,780 in terms of a reality to people who have 1947 01:27:53,630 --> 01:27:51,330 ability to access this higher 1948 01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:53,640 consciousness so there I've just thrown 1949 01:27:57,230 --> 01:27:55,770 a ton of on the table too and I 1950 01:27:59,720 --> 01:27:57,240 don't know what's true and what isn't 1951 01:28:00,170 --> 01:27:59,730 true but I wanted to add that part of 1952 01:28:02,510 --> 01:28:00,180 the story 1953 01:28:03,980 --> 01:28:02,520 yeah well it's also very interesting 1954 01:28:06,050 --> 01:28:03,990 again it leads to a really long 1955 01:28:08,330 --> 01:28:06,060 conversation and it's making me think we 1956 01:28:12,410 --> 01:28:08,340 started talking about leery now we're on 1957 01:28:14,390 --> 01:28:12,420 to Rama Das and how really very very 1958 01:28:19,130 --> 01:28:14,400 different these two characters are and 1959 01:28:20,899 --> 01:28:19,140 how they both embody very opposite 1960 01:28:23,149 --> 01:28:20,909 aspects of 1961 01:28:26,180 --> 01:28:23,159 religion and the religious experience 1962 01:28:28,820 --> 01:28:26,190 and you know my friend gay doing ham did 1963 01:28:31,930 --> 01:28:28,830 a brilliant and important film that's 1964 01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:31,940 been out and about called dying to know 1965 01:28:39,169 --> 01:28:36,650 which was a conversation between Tim and 1966 01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:39,179 ramadasa yeah I've seen it you've seen 1967 01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:40,770 it okay so you can so you know in that 1968 01:28:47,770 --> 01:28:43,170 film so here's these two guys now 1969 01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:47,780 religion you know Tim Tim was a 1970 01:28:52,669 --> 01:28:50,610 revolutionary Tim grew up Tim didn't 1971 01:28:54,770 --> 01:28:52,679 have any money Tim wanted to change the 1972 01:28:56,750 --> 01:28:54,780 world he wanted he wanted he believed in 1973 01:28:58,640 --> 01:28:56,760 democracy he didn't like that the money 1974 01:29:00,110 --> 01:28:58,650 was all concentrated at the top and the 1975 01:29:01,820 --> 01:29:00,120 most of the people didn't have any and 1976 01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:01,830 they were controlled by though he was an 1977 01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:03,840 Irish fighting the English you know he 1978 01:29:10,100 --> 01:29:07,290 wanted to see a more equal distribution 1979 01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:10,110 of wealth and power in the society and 1980 01:29:13,490 --> 01:29:11,370 having having a democracy 1981 01:29:17,149 --> 01:29:13,500 Ramraj is a totally different character 1982 01:29:19,070 --> 01:29:17,159 and for him you're really hard to 1983 01:29:20,870 --> 01:29:19,080 something there right I I'm saying this 1984 01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:20,880 in a whole new light because let's just 1985 01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:22,650 expound on that a little bit Rob gots is 1986 01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:25,650 a rich kid I mean he is a rich ass kid 1987 01:29:30,410 --> 01:29:28,290 from Harvard privilege and then when he 1988 01:29:32,780 --> 01:29:30,420 goes and does the Guru thing it's hey 1989 01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:32,790 everybody come out to my dad's you know 1990 01:29:39,350 --> 01:29:36,570 45 acre estate you know kind of 1991 01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:39,360 thing right yep Tim is constantly 1992 01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:42,690 reminding him and the viewer how 1993 01:29:47,990 --> 01:29:44,730 different they are it's the last line of 1994 01:29:49,790 --> 01:29:48,000 the movie we're different we're 1995 01:29:53,410 --> 01:29:49,800 different and so here again is a 1996 01:29:57,189 --> 01:29:53,420 religion a conservative force that is a 1997 01:29:59,780 --> 01:29:57,199 mind control operation by elites to 1998 01:30:02,930 --> 01:29:59,790 pacify and control the masses like 1999 01:30:07,340 --> 01:30:02,940 Huxley learned about in brave new world 2000 01:30:09,350 --> 01:30:07,350 and more acutely wrote about in an an 2001 01:30:10,970 --> 01:30:09,360 essay that's nowhere near is well-known 2002 01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:10,980 that I would encourage your our 2003 01:30:17,240 --> 01:30:14,489 listeners to check out brave new world 2004 01:30:19,250 --> 01:30:17,250 revisited which is postscript to brave 2005 01:30:21,919 --> 01:30:19,260 the world that he wrote in 1958 2006 01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:21,929 so here's here you see this kind of 2007 01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:24,449 embodied in Tim was really trying to you 2008 01:30:28,790 --> 01:30:26,489 know he's anti-war he's getting he's 2009 01:30:31,100 --> 01:30:28,800 arrested he's a problem to the 2010 01:30:33,169 --> 01:30:31,110 establishment Rahm das is not a problem 2011 01:30:35,140 --> 01:30:33,179 to the establishment Ramdas is exactly 2012 01:30:38,290 --> 01:30:35,150 what the establishment 2013 01:30:39,850 --> 01:30:38,300 it's a kind of feel good bhakti religion 2014 01:30:42,489 --> 01:30:39,860 you're not going to change the structure 2015 01:30:44,589 --> 01:30:42,499 of society or the distribution of wealth 2016 01:30:46,390 --> 01:30:44,599 or power why bother well but there 2017 01:30:48,370 --> 01:30:46,400 that's tricky that's really tricky I 2018 01:30:50,469 --> 01:30:48,380 mean we at play with that on two 2019 01:30:53,890 --> 01:30:50,479 different dimensions right we can play 2020 01:30:55,810 --> 01:30:53,900 with that on the political dimension and 2021 01:30:59,049 --> 01:30:55,820 it looks one way and we can play with 2022 01:31:01,660 --> 01:30:59,059 the bhakti Pathan and bhakti is service 2023 01:31:05,259 --> 01:31:01,670 right so bhakti is no bhakti is love 2024 01:31:07,899 --> 01:31:05,269 right bhakti bhakti is the love path 2025 01:31:11,529 --> 01:31:07,909 like one things jumps to mind there is 2026 01:31:14,979 --> 01:31:11,539 that many folks in the yogic tradition 2027 01:31:19,029 --> 01:31:14,989 will tell you you can go as far as you 2028 01:31:21,939 --> 01:31:19,039 want down the path of the the warrior 2029 01:31:24,219 --> 01:31:21,949 the timothy leary warrior but at some 2030 01:31:26,949 --> 01:31:24,229 point to get past the final hurdle 2031 01:31:29,410 --> 01:31:26,959 you're going to need the Guru and us in 2032 01:31:31,870 --> 01:31:29,420 the West don't accept the Gruen I am NOT 2033 01:31:33,939 --> 01:31:31,880 a guru guy nowhere close never 2034 01:31:37,089 --> 01:31:33,949 have been never had that's just not me 2035 01:31:40,779 --> 01:31:37,099 I'm a conic last person that's my nature 2036 01:31:43,569 --> 01:31:40,789 but I do see the wisdom of submitting 2037 01:31:46,330 --> 01:31:43,579 that there is a wisdom to submitting as 2038 01:31:48,699 --> 01:31:46,340 much as it pulls against you know who I 2039 01:31:50,500 --> 01:31:48,709 am kind of thing and in that respect 2040 01:31:52,779 --> 01:31:50,510 you're saying something really beautiful 2041 01:31:56,199 --> 01:31:52,789 and deep there Robert in terms of how 2042 01:31:59,649 --> 01:31:56,209 these two guys who bring forth this 2043 01:32:03,310 --> 01:31:59,659 whole experience of psychedelics are 2044 01:32:06,370 --> 01:32:03,320 representing two aspects that ultimately 2045 01:32:09,609 --> 01:32:06,380 lead to the same place if we will in 2046 01:32:12,459 --> 01:32:09,619 terms of higher consciousness and I 2047 01:32:15,489 --> 01:32:12,469 don't know I hate to shut it off and 2048 01:32:17,319 --> 01:32:15,499 pull it back down to this materialistic 2049 01:32:18,430 --> 01:32:17,329 kind of eye but we have to do that 2050 01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:18,440 sometimes you know when we talk about 2051 01:32:24,100 --> 01:32:21,530 the CIA and you know the mind control 2052 01:32:27,100 --> 01:32:24,110 and but but I think these guys are also 2053 01:32:29,620 --> 01:32:27,110 playing on a whole different level a 2054 01:32:32,350 --> 01:32:29,630 higher level what any thoughts and I 2055 01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:32,360 mean Tim and Richard yeah yeah I mean 2056 01:32:37,390 --> 01:32:34,010 they're playing they're playing on the 2057 01:32:40,419 --> 01:32:37,400 psycho spiritual kind of dimension - 2058 01:32:41,739 --> 01:32:40,429 that totally transcends anything that 2059 01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:41,749 these guys want to do in terms of 2060 01:32:45,219 --> 01:32:43,610 playing around with you know trying to 2061 01:32:48,100 --> 01:32:45,229 control people and all the rest of that 2062 01:32:49,899 --> 01:32:48,110 I mean not it not to shift gears 2063 01:32:51,250 --> 01:32:49,909 too far again because it's gonna drive 2064 01:32:54,550 --> 01:32:51,260 people nuts but I was listening to 2065 01:32:57,550 --> 01:32:54,560 Whitley Strieber recently and him 2066 01:32:59,050 --> 01:32:57,560 talking about how he was had first-hand 2067 01:33:01,359 --> 01:32:59,060 experience with the mind control 2068 01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:01,369 horrible horrible mind control program 2069 01:33:05,859 --> 01:33:03,770 that he was subjected to when he was 2070 01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:05,869 like nine years old in San Antonio Texas 2071 01:33:11,830 --> 01:33:09,770 and these guys this is MKULTRA like in 2072 01:33:14,370 --> 01:33:11,840 its worse taking these little kids and 2073 01:33:16,870 --> 01:33:14,380 putting him in Skinner boxes in this 2074 01:33:19,359 --> 01:33:16,880 deprivation sensory deprivation in order 2075 01:33:22,959 --> 01:33:19,369 to crack them open to see if they could 2076 01:33:24,939 --> 01:33:22,969 because we know when people are in like 2077 01:33:28,570 --> 01:33:24,949 people who are suggest subjected to 2078 01:33:31,169 --> 01:33:28,580 trauma crack open and reach these other 2079 01:33:33,310 --> 01:33:31,179 dimensions whether they be psychic or 2080 01:33:34,570 --> 01:33:33,320 out-of-body travel or whatever they were 2081 01:33:35,950 --> 01:33:34,580 and they were playing around with this 2082 01:33:37,629 --> 01:33:35,960 because like hey man we got to 2083 01:33:39,820 --> 01:33:37,639 figure out that part of it too kind of 2084 01:33:41,649 --> 01:33:39,830 thing but what he said just really stuck 2085 01:33:45,939 --> 01:33:41,659 with me from a spiritual side he said 2086 01:33:48,790 --> 01:33:45,949 these guys don't realize what they're 2087 01:33:50,109 --> 01:33:48,800 doing to their soul and I don't know how 2088 01:33:51,300 --> 01:33:50,119 comfortable you are with that or how 2089 01:33:54,729 --> 01:33:51,310 comfortable are with the idea of 2090 01:33:57,189 --> 01:33:54,739 reincarnation and karma at is at this 2091 01:33:59,439 --> 01:33:57,199 much higher level rather than this kind 2092 01:34:02,379 --> 01:33:59,449 of dime-store you know do this don't do 2093 01:34:06,010 --> 01:34:02,389 that kind of thing and you know I wonder 2094 01:34:09,399 --> 01:34:06,020 at the soul level who these actors are 2095 01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:09,409 Timothy Leary Ram Dass and it seems to 2096 01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:11,570 me like they're there they're like right 2097 01:34:18,669 --> 01:34:16,010 out of some mythical Indian story of you 2098 01:34:21,010 --> 01:34:18,679 know like good and bad and and the 2099 01:34:24,310 --> 01:34:21,020 follower and the leader and the soldier 2100 01:34:27,609 --> 01:34:24,320 and the warrior and yet you process that 2101 01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:27,619 you obviously have closure no I drafted 2102 01:34:32,260 --> 01:34:29,810 a screenplay once where I had this 2103 01:34:34,570 --> 01:34:32,270 psychedelic scenario that we've been 2104 01:34:36,490 --> 01:34:34,580 talking about Wasson and Hoffman and 2105 01:34:39,189 --> 01:34:36,500 these were characters you can find them 2106 01:34:41,890 --> 01:34:39,199 you know there's G darn or Bruno and and 2107 01:34:45,790 --> 01:34:41,900 Galileo and you know there's what it's 2108 01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:45,800 the same drama in different epochs right 2109 01:34:50,320 --> 01:34:48,770 Jesus and so on ya know it's the same 2110 01:34:52,899 --> 01:34:50,330 story you're right no they're they're 2111 01:34:55,750 --> 01:34:52,909 mythic archetypal characters and they 2112 01:34:58,720 --> 01:34:55,760 knew it they knew it and they played it 2113 01:35:01,010 --> 01:34:58,730 to the hilt ROM da still does again not 2114 01:35:03,740 --> 01:35:01,020 unless I'm saying that in a 2115 01:35:07,550 --> 01:35:03,750 he would write write write just tell you 2116 01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:07,560 yeah and the question for me again 2117 01:35:11,090 --> 01:35:09,330 though like I'm not quite you said 2118 01:35:12,650 --> 01:35:11,100 something a little bit ago about you 2119 01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:12,660 know they're at the same kind of 2120 01:35:17,330 --> 01:35:15,210 consciousness and I'm not sure that I 2121 01:35:21,460 --> 01:35:17,340 agree with that because I think that the 2122 01:35:24,950 --> 01:35:21,470 I think that the political 2123 01:35:27,620 --> 01:35:24,960 earth-centered consciousness is 2124 01:35:30,110 --> 01:35:27,630 different than the transcendental 2125 01:35:32,870 --> 01:35:30,120 consciousness and that we you know you 2126 01:35:35,780 --> 01:35:32,880 look at the history of spiritual 2127 01:35:38,990 --> 01:35:35,790 techniques like say tera vaada and 2128 01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:39,000 Buddhism you know the the mystical 2129 01:35:44,770 --> 01:35:42,210 experience mystical experience doesn't 2130 01:35:49,670 --> 01:35:44,780 come really till the end of the practice 2131 01:35:52,100 --> 01:35:49,680 if it comes too early it's considered a 2132 01:35:55,130 --> 01:35:52,110 corruption it's something like to like 2133 01:35:58,300 --> 01:35:55,140 don't go to that because you get sort of 2134 01:36:00,830 --> 01:35:58,310 blissed-out or the or in the in the 2135 01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:00,840 hindu version there's a wonderful phrase 2136 01:36:05,630 --> 01:36:02,370 that i repeat a lot when I talk about 2137 01:36:08,570 --> 01:36:05,640 this ashram adharma ashram adharma which 2138 01:36:11,270 --> 01:36:08,580 means the truth about the stages of life 2139 01:36:13,910 --> 01:36:11,280 you know Yoga was it was a technique 2140 01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:13,920 that came later in life in your 2141 01:36:20,420 --> 01:36:17,610 renunciate or cine Osun phase a society 2142 01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:20,430 falls apart if the Warriors become 2143 01:36:26,510 --> 01:36:23,730 mystics too soon because you need you 2144 01:36:29,150 --> 01:36:26,520 need that the society needs to have a 2145 01:36:32,180 --> 01:36:29,160 structure to it and this this might have 2146 01:36:35,060 --> 01:36:32,190 been the psychological operation of the 2147 01:36:38,060 --> 01:36:35,070 psychedelic movement my metaphors the 2148 01:36:40,430 --> 01:36:38,070 culture got fairy dust thrown at it and 2149 01:36:42,710 --> 01:36:40,440 people are like blissing out and going 2150 01:36:45,260 --> 01:36:42,720 off into these we're gonna levitate the 2151 01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:45,270 Pentagon levitate the Pentagon no that's 2152 01:36:50,300 --> 01:36:47,010 not how you end war you don't levitate 2153 01:36:52,100 --> 01:36:50,310 Pentagon's you organized politically you 2154 01:36:55,160 --> 01:36:52,110 realize what these guys are doing you 2155 01:36:56,930 --> 01:36:55,170 smarten up you discipline yourself you 2156 01:37:00,560 --> 01:36:56,940 are in the world you're not levitating 2157 01:37:02,090 --> 01:37:00,570 things here well maybe maybe it I get 2158 01:37:05,180 --> 01:37:02,100 where you're coming from and I cannot 2159 01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:05,190 dis dismiss that there there are other 2160 01:37:11,870 --> 01:37:08,850 sides of that one from the this world 2161 01:37:14,190 --> 01:37:11,880 --is-- kind of standpoint we have to be 2162 01:37:16,900 --> 01:37:14,200 fair about the 2163 01:37:18,550 --> 01:37:16,910 agenda that we've in the power that 2164 01:37:20,710 --> 01:37:18,560 we've given these people and you know 2165 01:37:23,020 --> 01:37:20,720 you were talking about the manifest 2166 01:37:26,680 --> 01:37:23,030 destiny of the United States and the 2167 01:37:28,150 --> 01:37:26,690 superiority and stuff like that and you 2168 01:37:30,730 --> 01:37:28,160 know we can argue that we could talk 2169 01:37:32,950 --> 01:37:30,740 about that compared to what you know I 2170 01:37:35,440 --> 01:37:32,960 don't want to live in North Korea I 2171 01:37:37,780 --> 01:37:35,450 don't want to live in Apple's chai comm 2172 01:37:41,950 --> 01:37:37,790 factories I don't want to live in Russia 2173 01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:41,960 so I I don't like some of the stuff that 2174 01:37:46,390 --> 01:37:43,610 you're talking about in and where it 2175 01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:46,400 might go but that's a whole different 2176 01:37:51,220 --> 01:37:48,770 game that's a I want you on that wall I 2177 01:37:54,070 --> 01:37:51,230 need you on that wall kind of game and I 2178 01:37:56,920 --> 01:37:54,080 love having those discussions and I love 2179 01:38:00,720 --> 01:37:56,930 going there but I also want to throw 2180 01:38:04,620 --> 01:38:00,730 some rocks at this idea of romanticizing 2181 01:38:06,190 --> 01:38:04,630 Indian mystical culture and even yogic 2182 01:38:08,260 --> 01:38:06,200 understanding of some of this stuff 2183 01:38:09,790 --> 01:38:08,270 because some of it's just I 2184 01:38:11,860 --> 01:38:09,800 love what the Timothy Leary one third of 2185 01:38:14,710 --> 01:38:11,870 it's it's like hey people have 2186 01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:14,720 spontaneous Kundalini awakening all the 2187 01:38:19,210 --> 01:38:17,330 time and I don't know why God allows 2188 01:38:21,220 --> 01:38:19,220 that I was like through God in there 2189 01:38:23,500 --> 01:38:21,230 because it throws people off but I 2190 01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:23,510 interviewed a woman a long time ago 2191 01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:26,330 what's her new quart hazel Courtney you 2192 01:38:31,570 --> 01:38:28,610 know she just as an example though she's 2193 01:38:33,340 --> 01:38:31,580 a writer for the London Times like as 2194 01:38:36,940 --> 01:38:33,350 you know straight straight of the line 2195 01:38:39,940 --> 01:38:36,950 journalist she has an incredible psychic 2196 01:38:44,020 --> 01:38:39,950 experience of Kundalini awakening and 2197 01:38:45,970 --> 01:38:44,030 starts being hyper psychic starts being 2198 01:38:47,620 --> 01:38:45,980 able to have these weather phenomena 2199 01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:47,630 that people talk about I mean these 2200 01:38:51,580 --> 01:38:49,730 things are all over the place when you 2201 01:38:54,610 --> 01:38:51,590 start looking for him and she didn't go 2202 01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:54,620 looking for this this came looking for 2203 01:39:01,150 --> 01:38:56,690 her I just interviewed a couple episodes 2204 01:39:02,950 --> 01:39:01,160 ago a medium who is been tested by I 2205 01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:02,960 think one of the best people in the 2206 01:39:07,930 --> 01:39:05,810 country from University Arizona dr. 2207 01:39:11,050 --> 01:39:07,940 Julie by she'll has tested and 2208 01:39:13,390 --> 01:39:11,060 controlled medium communication 2209 01:39:15,130 --> 01:39:13,400 published peer-reviewed journal and she 2210 01:39:17,590 --> 01:39:15,140 says this woman passes all the tests 2211 01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:17,600 there she is telling me about how she's 2212 01:39:22,450 --> 01:39:20,090 just going about her life and suddenly 2213 01:39:25,150 --> 01:39:22,460 she has traumatic experiences of her 2214 01:39:27,190 --> 01:39:25,160 mother dying in her I think her sister 2215 01:39:27,910 --> 01:39:27,200 dying and a short period of time and lo 2216 01:39:30,910 --> 01:39:27,920 and behold 2217 01:39:33,430 --> 01:39:30,920 boom dead spirits shots showing up and 2218 01:39:35,890 --> 01:39:33,440 telling her you know do this do that so 2219 01:39:38,110 --> 01:39:35,900 that this idea I've heard that the 2220 01:39:39,760 --> 01:39:38,120 ending you know this is how we live our 2221 01:39:41,320 --> 01:39:39,770 life in the first quarter in the second 2222 01:39:42,760 --> 01:39:41,330 quarter throw all that out the 2223 01:39:45,250 --> 01:39:42,770 window because it isn't it isn't 2224 01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:45,260 happening like that for everybody not 2225 01:39:49,510 --> 01:39:47,650 for everybody no spirituality is not 2226 01:39:52,330 --> 01:39:49,520 democratic you know that's a line from 2227 01:39:55,030 --> 01:39:52,340 one of my teachers Houston Smith that we 2228 01:39:58,570 --> 01:39:55,040 have two very tricky conversation in 2229 01:40:01,320 --> 01:39:58,580 this culture because I mean these realms 2230 01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:01,330 these other realms do exist these 2231 01:40:07,330 --> 01:40:03,890 magical mystical things Kundalini 2232 01:40:10,330 --> 01:40:07,340 psychic you know near-death experiences 2233 01:40:13,750 --> 01:40:10,340 and what what may be right for someone 2234 01:40:17,320 --> 01:40:13,760 at one time in their life expansive and 2235 01:40:19,810 --> 01:40:17,330 healing can be very destructive and very 2236 01:40:22,390 --> 01:40:19,820 confusing the same kind of experience to 2237 01:40:24,729 --> 01:40:22,400 another person and it may be out of 2238 01:40:27,280 --> 01:40:24,739 their control that's I guess what I'm 2239 01:40:29,320 --> 01:40:27,290 throwing in because yes with the 2240 01:40:31,870 --> 01:40:29,330 introduction of psychedelics where I can 2241 01:40:33,640 --> 01:40:31,880 at least I appear to be able to control 2242 01:40:35,919 --> 01:40:33,650 that these kind of there's other 2243 01:40:38,890 --> 01:40:35,929 experiences that are on par with it in 2244 01:40:41,290 --> 01:40:38,900 terms of transformative that are out 2245 01:40:43,300 --> 01:40:41,300 seem to be outside of the our control 2246 01:40:45,430 --> 01:40:43,310 and that kind of throws a wrench in the 2247 01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:45,440 whole thing - well you know we could go 2248 01:40:50,040 --> 01:40:48,170 on Alec we can and and you've been so 2249 01:40:52,570 --> 01:40:50,050 incredibly generous with your time 2250 01:40:54,370 --> 01:40:52,580 Robert you you've mentioned some of the 2251 01:40:56,950 --> 01:40:54,380 projects that you're involved with in 2252 01:40:59,410 --> 01:40:56,960 terms of very exciting stuff in terms of 2253 01:41:02,580 --> 01:40:59,420 writing a book maybe about your 2254 01:41:04,930 --> 01:41:02,590 incredible life also maybe a screenplay 2255 01:41:06,490 --> 01:41:04,940 what will people want get out of the 2256 01:41:07,870 --> 01:41:06,500 books that you've already written and 2257 01:41:10,660 --> 01:41:07,880 then what new projects are you working 2258 01:41:12,790 --> 01:41:10,670 on well I just have these couple of 2259 01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:12,800 projects now and I've started to work on 2260 01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:14,810 this book for the German publishers with 2261 01:41:21,669 --> 01:41:17,570 Matthias brokers who is a best-selling 2262 01:41:24,220 --> 01:41:21,679 author in Germany was like he's 2263 01:41:25,590 --> 01:41:24,230 considered Europe's foremost conspiracy 2264 01:41:30,970 --> 01:41:25,600 theorist he wrote one of the first 2265 01:41:32,979 --> 01:41:30,980 best-selling books on 9/11 and I really 2266 01:41:35,350 --> 01:41:32,989 honored that he asked me to collaborate 2267 01:41:37,660 --> 01:41:35,360 with him so that's a new project I have 2268 01:41:38,979 --> 01:41:37,670 a screenplay that I've been you know 2269 01:41:41,380 --> 01:41:38,989 this is we can tell from this 2270 01:41:45,400 --> 01:41:41,390 conversation this is a very hard 2271 01:41:48,460 --> 01:41:45,410 story to put into a you know an arc so I 2272 01:41:50,110 --> 01:41:48,470 I struggle with that but I'm mostly kind 2273 01:41:51,550 --> 01:41:50,120 of retired up here in the Santa Cruz 2274 01:41:55,540 --> 01:41:51,560 Mountains I work a little bit in the 2275 01:41:57,220 --> 01:41:55,550 cannabis business and I don't even have 2276 01:41:59,350 --> 01:41:57,230 my own web page I mean there's an 2277 01:42:02,320 --> 01:41:59,360 academic web page I'm an adjunct faculty 2278 01:42:04,990 --> 01:42:02,330 at the California Institute of integral 2279 01:42:08,890 --> 01:42:05,000 studies in San Francisco my views are 2280 01:42:11,470 --> 01:42:08,900 controversial sometimes they they send a 2281 01:42:13,420 --> 01:42:11,480 student my way I will encourage anybody 2282 01:42:17,110 --> 01:42:13,430 that's listening if they want to 2283 01:42:19,630 --> 01:42:17,120 I sort of blog a bit on Facebook so you 2284 01:42:23,340 --> 01:42:19,640 can reach me there we can carry on this 2285 01:42:24,580 --> 01:42:23,350 discussion that way how's that that's 2286 01:42:27,690 --> 01:42:24,590 perfect 2287 01:42:30,340 --> 01:42:27,700 our guest has been Robert Forte an 2288 01:42:33,130 --> 01:42:30,350 incredible incredible person and we'll 2289 01:42:35,140 --> 01:42:33,140 keep an eye out for those projects that 2290 01:42:38,230 --> 01:42:35,150 you're working on because there's a life 2291 01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:38,240 story here that must be told and I can't 2292 01:42:44,410 --> 01:42:41,690 imagine how fun it would be to see it in 2293 01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:44,420 some kind of a screenplay because 2294 01:42:48,670 --> 01:42:46,730 there's an artistic part of this that 2295 01:42:51,700 --> 01:42:48,680 might contribute to the storytelling 2296 01:42:53,710 --> 01:42:51,710 Robert again thank you so much for for 2297 01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:53,720 joining me and for having this kind of 2298 01:42:58,630 --> 01:42:56,570 conversation Alex thanks a lot I've 2299 01:43:01,720 --> 01:42:58,640 enjoyed it I look forward to meeting you 2300 01:43:05,500 --> 01:43:01,730 someday I enjoy your podcast and I'm 2301 01:43:07,270 --> 01:43:05,510 wishing you lots of good luck thanks 2302 01:43:09,700 --> 01:43:07,280 again to Rob Forte for joining me today 2303 01:43:12,420 --> 01:43:09,710 on skeptic oh the one question I T up 2304 01:43:14,860 --> 01:43:12,430 from this interview has to do with 2305 01:43:17,380 --> 01:43:14,870 entheogens it's something we've kicked 2306 01:43:19,150 --> 01:43:17,390 around many times and I guess I've gone 2307 01:43:22,210 --> 01:43:19,160 back and forth but I'm wondering what 2308 01:43:25,390 --> 01:43:22,220 you think about the role of entheogen 2309 01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:25,400 in spirituality I know this is a topic 2310 01:43:28,660 --> 01:43:27,410 we've touched on many times but as you 2311 01:43:31,240 --> 01:43:28,670 know going through this interview 2312 01:43:34,060 --> 01:43:31,250 there's a lot of different aspects to it 2313 01:43:36,490 --> 01:43:34,070 and it doesn't hurt to return to it over 2314 01:43:39,910 --> 01:43:36,500 and over again so our in Thea jhin's 2315 01:43:43,180 --> 01:43:39,920 giving us a glimpse of the divine or are 2316 01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:43,190 they clouding our vision of it let me 2317 01:43:47,770 --> 01:43:45,410 know your thoughts skeptical forum is 2318 01:43:50,290 --> 01:43:47,780 one way to do it send me an email of 2319 01:43:52,450 --> 01:43:50,300 course is another way and all that good 2320 01:43:55,149 --> 01:43:52,460 stuff you can find at The Skeptical 2321 01:43:57,310 --> 01:43:55,159 website eske EPT 2322 01:43:59,950 --> 01:43:57,320 I Kato calm all the shows they're 2323 01:44:02,169 --> 01:43:59,960 available free for download I hope you 2324 01:44:04,240 --> 01:44:02,179 enjoyed this show if you did let me know 2325 01:44:06,550 --> 01:44:04,250 if you think there's someone who needs 2326 01:44:08,290 --> 01:44:06,560 to hear it please pass it along to them 2327 01:44:10,209 --> 01:44:08,300 I have a couple of really good ones 2328 01:44:12,850 --> 01:44:10,219 coming up in the near future so do stick 2329 01:44:16,350 --> 01:44:12,860 around for all of that until next time 2330 01:44:31,479 --> 01:44:16,360 take care and bye for now 2331 01:44:36,140 --> 01:44:34,250 so thanks for watching this video if it 2332 01:44:38,720 --> 01:44:36,150 wasn't really a video but just an audio 2333 01:44:40,310 --> 01:44:38,730 stored as a video I apologize but 2334 01:44:42,229 --> 01:44:40,320 there's more videos out there as well 2335 01:44:44,060 --> 01:44:42,239 but please check out the skeptic Oh 2336 01:44:45,439 --> 01:44:44,070 website you can see it here we cover a 2337 01:44:48,260 --> 01:44:45,449 lot of different stuff you might be 2338 01:44:51,589 --> 01:44:48,270 interested in relating to controversial 2339 01:44:54,290 --> 01:44:51,599 science and spirituality a lot of shows 2340 01:44:57,140 --> 01:44:54,300 up there over 350 of them are so all 2341 01:44:59,450 --> 01:44:57,150 free all available for download so do